What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

Oh god that list 😭 how about because some kids are just horrible!

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Oh my gosh, what a horrible, victim blaming list!

It's a good summary though, horrible or not.

The apparently confident and "cool" (or whatever word is fashionable that day) kid who doesn't bite and seems not to care doesn't get excluded either.

[quote garnierfruit]@HughGrantsHair do the teachers disclose that information to the parents? Whenever I have asked the teacher at parents evening (phone call) how my daughter is getting on socially she always just says yes fine.

If there was genuine concern of exclusion/bullying going on, would this be flagged up to parents? [/quote]
If the child had become upset in class and it hadn't been resolved then yes, we would mention it to parents at the end of the day

Most of the time though it's very short lived, someone won't play with someone on one playtime and by lunch time they're friends again.

Very rarely is it a big problem. We've had parents in today about this kind of issue.

@SonnyWinds, fuck me, I sincerely hope that you don’t teach at my DD1’s school. You sound horribly lacking in empathy and understanding. In particular, I reference your point 14; is it like the Hunger Games at your school, you know the ‘strong’ kids battling it out against the ‘weak’ ones. Fucking hell, not much shocks me but your matter- of-fact twattishness about vulnerable kids is absolutely abhorrent. Are you ‘genuinely’ a teacher?

It is interesting that children are often desperate to remain friends with someone who treats them badly - but then so do many adults. We crave acceptance.
@SonnyWinds list basically highlights that children exploit differences. But I’d say it’s more about the insecurities of the bully than an actual ‘reason’ why someone is picked on or excluded.

From my experience of girls excluding others, the bully likes to see a reaction. So if the victim can ignore and make new friends the bully will move on to someone else.

@ineedanewuaernsme

Wow *@SonnyWinds* aren't you a peach!

This is what SonnyWinds has noticed as a teacher can be the reasons children are excluded. It is not her own personal belief.

I don't think the list was victim blaming - the poster didn't say which, if any, she thought were reasons deserving of the treatment. Just the reasons which tend to get the treatment - no blame attached.

I would add fear - the excluding child's fear not the excluded child's fear. Children between about 7 and 13 fear being the one at the 'bottom of the pile' - the one everyone else picks on - more than most other things about being at school. They want to have friends and be popular. For some children - often those who fear they are just a coule of rungs up from 'bottom' themselves - the way to protect themselves and even gain some sort of popularity from others is to have a go at someone else and make them bottom. Childhood is a nasty power struggle in many ways.

My class are P4 and falling out is a daily occurrence unfortunately. Sometimes it’s because someone has said something mean, but often the person being excluded hasn’t done anything and it stems from the insecurity and jealousy of the others. For example, Girl A doesn’t like what she perceives as girls B + C getting closer so decides to convince B to be her friend and actively exclude C together. In my class the child being excluded can be a different person each day.

In another friendship pair I have two girls who constantly tell me the other one is being mean to them. But if I dare to suggest they maybe play with someone else, they’re adamant the person they were complaining about 2 seconds earlier is their best friend because actually the unkindness was a petty thing such as the other person not agreeing with them.

I’m working with the girls in my class to help them communicate better and approach situations positively rather than being unkind and spiteful towards one another. This book might be helpful to read together with your daughter: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1609582233/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_QP9R7JF007D4R8C4DXWA?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

@HughGrantsHair thank you, that's really helpful

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Oh my gosh, what a horrible, victim blaming list!

I know. Absolutely awful. And from a teacher.

I honestly think it’s just girls. My friends and I were like this in primary school and my 9 year old DD is like this now. They’re best friends one day, hate each other the next then it’s like nothing ever happened the following day. She often will leave school dramatically protesting about one of the other girls then the next day will tell me she was casually talking to that person. Honestly, it’s just a cycle girls go through probably until they grow up and leave school tbh.

Too many variables.

However a few kids at my school were clearly alienated due to the fact they were working class or on benefits. I couldn't have seen that then but I clearly see that now.

One boy's parents couldnt afford to buy him uniform so he came to school looking like a wacky clown. The kids bullied him mercilessly. Two girls were left out of a sports team because of their class, no doubt about it.

I sometimes wasn't invited to parties because the popular girls didnt like me. As a kid I wasnt very attractive but I was I smart, won all the class prizes and quite mature for my age. Then I grew out of being an ugly duckling and girls excluded me from parties but invited my boyfriends. You can guess yourself why that was

It's awful. DD stayed in a pair for years it was always easier once they became four it all changed.
She sticks with one again.
I think it is groups.
DS is very direct when excluding DC but only if he doesn't like them he wouldn't blow hot and cold on a DC he wouldn't be allowed.
It happened to me as a DC it is learnt behaviour from adults too.

is it like the Hunger Games at your school, you know the ‘strong’ kids battling it out against the ‘weak’ ones

It was like this at my secondary school. Hunger Games is precisely how I’d describe it actually. Dog eat dog, you had to be tough to make it out alive. Not even exaggerating, lots of inner city state schools are like that.

One of the things I focused on strongly with my children was learning that being the popular kid at school who is always included and never left out is not something that you get to put on your CV. It won't get you into college, get you a good job, help you find a life partner, make you a better parent, or in any way really prepare you for a successful life.

Also when they'd had a shitty day, I'd take them for ice cream and a hug.

@MintCassis thank you for that, I have just ordered it! Reviews are excellent.

@SonnyWinds

I'm a teacher - I teach secondary so slightly older but here's my experience of reasons why girls would regularly exclude one from the group.

1. They smell bad.
2. They talk too much or say weird things.
3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
5. They can't keep secrets
6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
7. They eat weird food
8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.

10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

There are way more reasons than this. In my experience, it goes in a circle though. Very rarely is one child excluded and not the others in the group - you just won't notice because you only really acknowledge it happening to you or someone you care about.

That is really horrible from a teacher.

Groups of three never work IMO because someone willl always be the odd one out.

Schools have all had funding for counselling following Covid-19. We are using ours in our class to work on kindness and friendship. (Along with those who need it following the stresses of lockdown)

There's a kid in my middle child's class who is regularly excluded by most/ all of the other kids in the class. The reason is because she is downright mean, controlling, bossy, manipulative and angry at them all. She cannot seem to play nicely with any of them without being in control of every aspect of every game. She shouts and is rude, and calls them names if they don't do what she wants.

So I can understand why she is excluded, because frankly who wants to put up with that day after day?

Also, I'm pretty sure that @SonnyWinds was listing the reasons that other kids have for excluding, rather than a list of what she personally believes should be reasons to exclude a child....

Your 7 year old daughter has a phone? This is one reason I'm not gonna let my 8 year old have a phone for a long time. I think they are too young to handle the type of communication a phone gives...things can be said over messages that they might not say say to their face (thoughtless things and misunderstandings) it gives them too much access and obsessions with friends/can encourage bullying. Emotionally they just aren't mature enough for that kind of communication imo. I only have just about let my son play Minecraft online with a few close friends only (of his he and I know in RL), they talk in the same room as me or his dad in the lounge while they play and they only do it from time to time. It's enough for him at the moment.

SonnyWinds list sounds dreadful, but it's hardly victim blaming when she's said it's in her experience as a teacher?
It's not a random list of "what character faults can I dream up that would justify exclusion?"
Something nasty is happening to the child being left out.

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

One of the things I focused on strongly with my children was learning that being the popular kid at school who is always included and never left out is not something that you get to put on your CV. It won't get you into college, get you a good job, help you find a life partner, make you a better parent, or in any way really prepare you for a successful life.

Also when they'd had a shitty day, I'd take them for ice cream and a hug.

I like your style!

@Homehaircuts

Your 7 year old daughter has a phone? This is one reason I'm not gonna let my 8 year old have a phone for a long time. I think they are too young to handle the type of communication a phone gives...things can be said over messages that they might not say say to their face (thoughtless things and misunderstandings) it gives them too much access and obsessions with friends/can encourage bullying. Emotionally they just aren't mature enough for that kind of communication imo. I only have just about let my son play Minecraft online with a few close friends only (of his he and I know in RL), they talk in the same room as me or his dad in the lounge while they play and they only do it from time to time. It's enough for him at the moment.

Absolutely agree. Please don't let your primary age children have social media, messaging services or play games that have chat facilities. It is the cause of so many problems.

Sonny’s list is saddening but probably true. And I’m not sure why people are blaming her for using her powers of observation.

It’s good to have friends outside school and mix in different groups.

The thing I notice is that Sonny's is a list of all of the things the excluded girl is doing which makes other girls exclude her.

ZZTop's list of the reasons why girls exclude other girls.
I think this is far more interesting and relevant.

True or not, it blames the excluded girl for the behaviour of other people towards her.

I was bullied at school because I was different. I'm disabled, was a bit geeky and not very girly. If I focused on that first list, I should have tried harder to be someone who I wasn't in order to fit in better.
Looking at the second list highlights the other girls' lack of ability to be more inclusive of people who don't fit. School could have been a lot better at educating the children not to bully, but the survival of the fittest excuse was easier.