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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

What makes kids exclude other kids?

303 replies

garnierfruit · 30/04/2021 20:49

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

OP posts:
ZZTopGuitarSolo · 30/04/2021 22:32

I look back on my time at a rough secondary and I recall girls being excluded for things like:

  • being called Helen
  • not having long hair
  • refusing to join in with excluding other girls
  • winning at cross country
  • because the head bully happened to think they were next for being excluded
  • not wanting to drink snakebite and black till they threw up

I mean... really they needed to make sure they stopped doing all those things to bring on being bullied and excluded. Right?

GreyhoundG1rl · 30/04/2021 22:35

Of course everyone knows it's on the bullies, nobody is victim blaming by suggesting possible reasons.
Reasons aren't excuses.

RampantIvy · 30/04/2021 22:37

@ineedanewuaernsme

Wow *@SonnyWinds* aren't you a peach!
I don't understand why you would say that. It is a pretty accurate list. Kids are cruel and like to have a scapegoat.
VashtaNerada · 30/04/2021 22:39

I’m a teacher and it’s definitely not ‘a girl thing’ Hmm Boys do this just as often. It’s hard to tell why it happens but if a friendship’s not working for whatever reason it might be worth building friendships with other children to see if they’re more secure.

MereDintofPandiculation · 30/04/2021 22:42

I suspect the people coming up with list of reasons why a particular girl should be excluded are the ones who were doing the excluding when they were at school.

Cipot · 30/04/2021 22:47

I think it was on The Secret Life of 4 Year Olds where it was observed that two can bond by excluding another. It's a power trip for inadequate types. To suggest it's because the victim smells is really appalling. Unfortunately it is a pattern of behaviour that some girls and women seem to follow. What a relief it is when your DC who is an independent thinker, doesn't blindly join in with bullying and has a tiny amount of kindness about her, finds others the same. OP I would encourage your dd to find new friends because there are girls who don't behave like this out there.

Cipot · 30/04/2021 22:49

@MereDintofPandiculation

I suspect the people coming up with list of reasons why a particular girl should be excluded are the ones who were doing the excluding when they were at school.
Or the ones who excuse their own DC's shitty behaviour.
littlepieces · 30/04/2021 22:56

@SonnyWinds
I'm glad you're not my teacher. Jesus.
How about the ringleading girls behind most of the excluding are nasty, controlling pieces of work, but sadly probably not from very stable homes.

I was in a friendship group at school, and the high maintenence, rich, popular girl who was the 'leader' used to pick and choose who was in or out depending on who could offer her better benefits from one week to the next. I didn't take her rubbish and she didn't like it, so I was often left out! Turned out years later that her mum was using her to stir up drama between her and her separated father in really awful ways. No wonder she behaved the way she did.

Diverseopinions · 30/04/2021 22:57

I agree that girls are jealous of those who are nice and kind. Gentleness gives them a sweetness which softens every attribute they have.
It's not cool to exclude people - especially a bigger group excluding one person. It's primitive, like the stronger animals excluding the weak from the group.

I've noticed other Mumsnet threads, about mothers being left out of conversations at the school gate, in which it seems that the line "They're just not your friend", or the explanation " you don't click" seems to excuse excluding behaviour. I get the impression that wanting to be in with the in crowd is seen as a competitive thing, like winning at sport, and basically positive, when really friendship should be a relaxing thing, and everybody should try to get on with everyone.

GreyhoundG1rl · 30/04/2021 22:58

SonnyWinds
I'm glad you're not my teacher. Jesus.
Oh, honestly. Your actual teacher should have taught you better comprehension skills.

Diverseopinions · 30/04/2021 23:03

Not all kids are cruel. That's why their parents let them have pets like cute little puppies and hamsters to care for. If all kids were mean, there wouldn't be any fluffy creatures alive and the school gerbil would never make it back after its weekend sojourns.
' Lord of the Flies' is supposed to be an allegory of what we don't want to happen and an exaggeration. I didn't think people really still thought that sharp elbows to push your way to the top and others out the way was a good thing - but maybe they do. .

Annoymoususer · 30/04/2021 23:18

I remember my daughter telling me she had nobody to play with and spent her time alone at breaks. I went along to parents evening and got to the bottom of it, it wasn't that the other girls shunned my daughter and didn't want to play with her it was because my daughter didn't want to play whatever the other girls were playing, so kinda excluded herself.

Saracen · 30/04/2021 23:21

When my kid was five, she persistently excluded a boy from her friendship group, even going so far as to create clubs just so she could tell him he wasn't allowed to join.

What triggered it initially was that for a few weeks they had played often together so he felt they were best friends - then she decided she wasn't that fond of him after all, and he didn't take her many tactful hints that she didn't want to play with him anymore. So he followed her around constantly wanting to play, until she turned on him in order to get rid of him. He didn't understand why he was being rejected and carried on trying to play with her, so she was even more mean to him and so it continued.

But after that I think she got hooked on the power, especially when she realised she could organise people against him. She was a queen bee type and very good at persuading other kids to do what she wanted, which in this case was to drive the boy away. She started to enjoy it.

I'm sorry to say I let it go on far too long, doing nothing except trying to persuade her to be nice to him. I was sure it would be good for them to sort it out by themselves. Eventually I came down hard on her and told her if she didn't cut it out she wouldn't be allowed to play with groups of children until she was able to behave better. All the other parents helped me keep an eye on her. That worked. But it wouldn't have worked at school, where children can't get away from each other and don't have close supervision from adults who can intervene in bullying. I really think the school environment makes these problems almost impossible to sort out.

Cattenberg · 30/04/2021 23:22

On the subject of children’s books, I think that Bad Girls by Jacqueline Wilson is a good depiction of the bully/henchmen/victim dynamic.

GreyhoundG1rl · 30/04/2021 23:24

All that happened outside of school, Saracen? Confused. Under your nose, so to speak?

Saracen · 30/04/2021 23:27

@GreyhoundG1rl

All that happened outside of school, Saracen? Confused. Under your nose, so to speak?
Yes. I was a big believer in the hands-off approach, and I thought my kid was nice and would do the right thing. It took some time for me to realise that it wasn't happening the way I hoped, and that the boy couldn't be treated that way while I waited for my kid to grow up.
Lullaby88 · 30/04/2021 23:34

Put it down to luck really. If 2 people connect better, have more common interests etc and theres a third then the third person will feel excluded. In kids this could be the types of toys theyr interested in, tv shows erc.
Difference with kids is that they expose it. Adults will be subtle and more mature and try to include the third person. So yeah it just depends on who you meet and who is in ur class.
And it is true that if someone smells bad, isn't dressed well etc theyrr more likely to be bullied and excluded. Just remember this happening in my own school..

BackforGood · 30/04/2021 23:48

I don't know why this happens but as a person working in the junior end of a primary school, I can say every girl has experienced exclusion from their friendship group at sometime this year. I am forever comforting upset girls.

Utter rubbish.
Speaking both as a parent (hasn't happened to either of mine), and Aunt, a Godmother, and a person who chats a lot to other parents. Also as a teacher.
What a ridiculous upscaling of an issue you might have observed.

Not sure how garnierfruit can start a thread complaining about how girls exclude others, then casually say in another post that her dd has said she doesn't want to play with another child "because she is weird" Hmm

transformandriseup · 30/04/2021 23:56

I used to be a youth leader for that age group and I noticed that there was a lot of frustration around trying to fit in and impress others. It seemed that in an attempt at to fit in with others, some of the children would betray friends so they didn't hold them back.

Of course we always did our best to put a stop to this but I saw it year on year plus it happened to me at school too at that age:

SneezyGonzalez · 30/04/2021 23:59

Enidblyton1

In my experience the girls who do the bullying often have something difficult happening at home - like parents arguing or going through a separation/divorce. These girls need to control something in their lives and picking on someone at school is an easy target.

Absolutely vile, sanctimonious, narrow-minded, thing to say and possibly the stupidest thing I’ve read on mumsnet ever 🙄

AnnaSW1 · 01/05/2021 00:12

@GreyhoundG1rl what's your question? Do you need a dictionary to look that up?

saltinesandcoffeecups · 01/05/2021 00:26

Honestly, it’s no wonder some posters here were picked on as kids if they can’t figure out that @SonnyWinds’s list was based on observations and not her opinion as a teacher. Perhaps they accused their friends of awful things because they got the wrong idea.

How utterly bizarre that anyone would think that Sonny agreed with any of these things.

BackforGood · 01/05/2021 00:28

Well said saltinesandcoffeecups

Diverseopinions · 01/05/2021 00:49

Ok, so if the staff have noticed a pupil smells, why is that child still smelling? Why aren't the pastoral leads working with the family and inviting the child to shower at school before class, and organising clean clothes for them?

If it's just a slight, different smell, not a symptom of neglect smell, then the kids have got to learn to put up with people presenting differently. They are going to need to travel on public transport, as adults, and work with many others in the workplace, some of whom might emit a distinctive, but not absolutely overpowering odour.

sweetypop · 01/05/2021 01:01

@SonnyWinds

I'm a teacher - I teach secondary so slightly older but here's my experience of reasons why girls would regularly exclude one from the group.
  1. They smell bad.
  2. They talk too much or say weird things.
  3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
  4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
  5. They can't keep secrets
  6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
  7. They eat weird food
  8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
  9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.
10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

There are way more reasons than this. In my experience, it goes in a circle though. Very rarely is one child excluded and not the others in the group - you just won't notice because you only really acknowledge it happening to you or someone you care about.

So basically any bloody reason to be nasty is taken up then