What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

Fgs people, I doubt @SonnyWinds refuses to play with people because they smell. I would imagine she prefers to spend break in the staff room, what with her being a teacher. It is a list of what she has observed, not the way she conducts herself personally

This happened to my DD in primary school. She was part of a threesome and sometimes they all got on well but sometimes the other two would leave her out and tell her she couldn't join in. It was basically a power thing IMO - the girl calling the shots liked to flex her muscles and show that she was in charge of the group.

Finally in year 6 my DD got sick of it and went off to make new friends in the class.

She's now in year 8 and funnily enough she's part of a threesome again. The three of them are unfailingly kind and supportive to each other and there is a complete lack of power play and bitchiness. I think DD leant a lot from her primary experience about being a good friend. So maybe in the long run it was worth the tears.

Hopefully it will work out ok for your DD.

@PerspicaciousGreen

Fear. Someone starts it as a power trip, everyone else has to join in or else it will be them on the outside. It just reinforces itself as everyone is desperate to be IN "the group" so competes to exclude whoever's out to reinforce their own place.

I'm a teacher. Primary.

This is the reason.

Some girls get a feel for the power of choosing who is in and who is out. The following girls does as she says.

Also, having two DDs as well as teaching, I would also say so much really does depend on the class dynamics. Some classes really are filled with tolerant, thoughtful kids. Some are filled with girls who have a pecking order.

SonnyWinds is correct.

I completely disagree that Sonny's list is probably true in primary years. I teach 7 year olds and don't recognise that list at all, though I can imagine it's true in secondary if that is her experience. I think it's much, much more to do with the person doing the excluding that the excludee themselves and agree that three is a crowd. Often others in the group just completely lack the insight to realise that they're complicit in the excluding if they're not the ones being out and out mean.

Sometimes kids get excluded because they’re not nice to the other children or they always demand their own way.

Notice you’re happy with her calling the other girl weird btw?!

Also I agree with pp - why on earth does your 7 yo have a phone?!

@garnierfruit have you watched Mean Girls? That’s a good social commentary on girls friendships.

I think sometimes a lot of it boils down to simple jealousy if I’m honest. The envy and fear of someone being more interesting than you, being prettier or doing better at sports.

Nah to @SonnyWinds list. It al about the excluder's issues not the excluded

@AnnaSW1

Nah to *@SonnyWinds* list. It al about the excluder's issues not the excluded

Nah?

@Thatisnotwhatisaid you're right, that's not okay and I should have addressed it. I will in future. In regards to the phone...I'd say it's much like an iPad or tablet, no sim, just hooked up to internet

Same reason adults do it, to secure their own position in the group.

Same reason adults do it, to secure their own position in the group.
This is often true but not always. Sometimes it's just plain old dislike of someone.

@SonnyWinds

I'm a teacher - I teach secondary so slightly older but here's my experience of reasons why girls would regularly exclude one from the group.

1. They smell bad.
2. They talk too much or say weird things.
3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
5. They can't keep secrets
6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
7. They eat weird food
8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.

10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

There are way more reasons than this. In my experience, it goes in a circle though. Very rarely is one child excluded and not the others in the group - you just won't notice because you only really acknowledge it happening to you or someone you care about.

Wow

This list describes the behaviour of the girl who excludes my daughter. She's a minx and brings all the other sheep girls with her.

My poor daughter is being ripped apart mentally.
She's honestly none of these things.

@sonniwinds thank you for the insights. In your experience ( if you are still here) what is a good approach to break the cycle ?

I'm also in support of @SonnyWinds. She listed what her experience has taught her. You can't give her a hard time for that, kids are savage.

I'm also confident that as a teacher she would have intervened (otherwise how would she know the reason), but she's not going to go into all that detail here.

I also think her list is probably (depressingly) accurate.

I remember being being mean to a girl when I was at primary school (not hot and cold mean, just teasing for a term). The reason...? She had a BO problem. Obviously it was all addressed by the school at the time. But as a child, you don't necessarily think about the impact your actions have on others. I'm mortified when I look back now, but at the time my friend and I didn't like her because she genuinely smelt bad 😔

As was also pointed out by a previous poster, children identify the differences and I doubt many are able to go through the thought process of (for example) "why do they smell / do they know / I bet they don't like smelling either". They just use the exclusion tactic to reinforce their inclusion.

DD had numerous issues as it was basically other girls mothers getting involved. We were from a slightly different part of town and so the mother’s didn’t like us. Thank god we are away from that primary.

Through primary and then the start of secondary there were a few of us (all nice girls) who got in trouble for excluding one girl (she would get her parents to complain). The reason, she was mean and rude. If you let her in she would just say horrible things and try and take over the group. She didn’t understand why we weren’t grateful to be her friend as her parents told her she was so great.

[quote Twoginsonetonic]@sonniwinds thank you for the insights. In your experience ( if you are still here) what is a good approach to break the cycle ?[/quote]

Are you genuinely asking this question. This list is spiteful - no wonder the kids are like this if the teachers have these opinions.

My kids are probably excluded a bit, mostly because I won’t let them have a phone until they are 10, they’re not allowed to play computer games online and they are not allowed on YouTube etc. Apart from the fact I don’t think pre-teens have the emotional maturity to handle some of the stuff they see online.

I have told my children that it’s best to have 1 or 2 true friends who accept them for who they are and be true to themselves. They are all close in age and have each other which helps. I’m sure my eldest finds it frustrating but I’m not going to give my 8 year old a phone so she can fit in with the ‘in crowd’.

My stepson went to school 2 hours from where he lived, he very rarely got invited to anything and he hated it. But now he is at university reading medicine and freely admits that because he had no social life when he was at school he was able to devote his evenings and weekends to studying and doing his homework properly.

Learned behaviour.

Why do people think that sonny agrees with the things she's observed?

.ask why don't you play with her at school, her response - 'oh she's weird'

So your daughter is doing some 'leaving out' as well then?

There's a million different reasons tbh. I do find that three is a toxic number for primary friendship groups - when they inevitably fall out, two go off together and one is left floundering.

Some kids are mean for the sake of being mean but some do bring things on themselves tbh. I have one at the moment who gets upset when the others don't want to play with her and calls it bullying (this is not to diminish what OPs child is dealing with). What's actually happening with this kid is that she's prickly as all hell, has a sharp tongue and holds grudges forever - and then is mystified when other kids don't want to be around her. It takes work with a kid over time to improve that.

I used to work with several mums of school age girls. The mums were frequently upset because their daughters were being bullied by other girls. Very few of the girls were spared.

IIRC, there are bullies and bullies’ henchmen. Bullies are unhappy people, but have good social and leadership skills. They may be very popular, but they try to deal with their own unhappiness by hurting others.

Bullies’ henchmen tend not to have good social skills, so align themselves with the “strong” bully and try hard to stay in his/her favour.

I honestly think that bullying says more about the bullies than the victim. The victim may be seen as an easy target for some reason, but it wasn’t them being bullied, it would probably someone (anyone) else.

Sonny’s and ZZTop’s lists have made me realise why my almost 13 yo dd is a complete sheep. She’s nice to her friends and doesn’t argue back at them. And some of them seem to much more easily pick on her. I’m working with her to try and bolster her. But this puts into perspective why she has decided to 100% absolutely conform. It’s really sad as she’s stifling all her creativity. She was excluded quite badly in yr1 by a girl, whose mum said something about my dd to her and that shaped her decisions, I suppose.

So to add to the list for primary:

1. some parents disapprove of other children and don’t keep it a secret from their children. Clearly those parents have massive issues themselves.
2. parents, who want their kids to be friends because they are friends with the parent(s) of the other child. At a certain stage, that child may get picked on by the child, who no longer wishes to maintain the friendship.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Oh my gosh, what a horrible, victim blaming list!

I've been on both sides (mean in primary, Bullied in secondary) and s Ucl as the list is unpleasant it's very accurate.

Agree it’s about power, and agree that 3 is always going to have a power imbalance.

I was in this situation OP as a 9 yr old - my long standing best friend had grown up a little faster than me and wanted to be mates with the “cool girl”, so she showed off to her by being mean to me and leaving me out. It worked. So she kept doing it. And I was a schmuck and kept coming back because this girl had been my best friend for so long.

Like your DD I ignored the other girl who really wanted to be my friend. With hindsight I was an idiot and should have made friends with the other girl - not least because that show of self esteem would have made me less of a target for ex-best friend.

I don’t know what to advise except continue to encourage other friendships. Oh and read Cats Eye by Margaret Atwood - it’s an amazing depiction of this sort of toxic group of three girls and the power play.

BTW I think some of the replies here (eg sonny) are talking about kids who are excluded by the whole class/year, which isn’t your DD as I read it.