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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what it is about “no overnight stays till 17 May” that is so hard to understand?

821 replies

HaveringWavering · 29/04/2021 16:22

So many colleagues and acquaintances merrily talking today about plans to go and stay with relatives for the bank holiday. Nobody has any shame. We’re waiting till the 17th. Does nobody care any more?

OP posts:
Temp023 · 30/04/2021 10:14

I really am starting to resent the implication I don’t give a shit about Covid, you know nothing of the past year for me or my family OP. But looking at the risks as they are, in this country, now. I choose to make my own choices.

RuggerHug · 30/04/2021 10:16

Also, you can really tell from this which fuckers were the ones in school that didn't bother their arse on group projects but expected to benefit from a decent grade based on others work(or were shocked when they were told you didn't do the work so you failed). Only way more serious.

TheOneWithTheBigNose · 30/04/2021 10:17

Most human interaction comes down to sharing opinions and, in doing so, seeking to influence the behaviour of others

Did it work? Have they seen the error of their ways?

Temp023 · 30/04/2021 10:19

@RuggerHug

Also, you can really tell from this which fuckers were the ones in school that didn't bother their arse on group projects but expected to benefit from a decent grade based on others work(or were shocked when they were told you didn't do the work so you failed). Only way more serious.
Excuse me, but your neuroses are hanging out!
TubeOfSmarties · 30/04/2021 10:20

Pretty appalled at all the comments advocating everyone make their own personal risk assessment

It's not about that. None of this has ever been about that, or most healthy and reasonably young people would have taken our chances and lived our lives this past year

While kids still have to miss school because there's been a case in their class, while adults have to miss work because of contact (or to look after said kids), while NHS services for other things are still reduced, etc, etc, it is not about anyone as an individual and those who think they are somehow more entitled than anyone else to do as they please

TheOneWithTheBigNose · 30/04/2021 10:20

Ah, you’re one of those remainers who thinks they’re cleverer than those who voted to leave.
I’m a remainer too by the way. But I don’t believe that my stance had anything to do with my intelligence levels. People just see things differently.

Jamboree01 · 30/04/2021 10:23

😂😂

RuggeryBuggery · 30/04/2021 10:25

Even the scientists have said now that two people meeting inside who are both vaccinated is extremely safe

YorkiePanda · 30/04/2021 10:26

in doing so, seeking to influence the behaviour of others

See that’s the thing. If that’s your endgame in your interactions, you’re always gonna be disappointed.

Actually changing someone’s opinion, mindset or behaviour takes a long ass time. I’ve worked with young people at risk of being radicalised. You know how long it took to get those kids/young adults to even CONSIDER that there might be some value in different opinions? It would have been really easy to be like “omg have you no shame”. But there were many, many reasons those young people had been attracted by such unpalatable groups and opinions. Belonging. Community. Friendship. Even safety - some were young runaways or from very chaotic home lives who had been taken in by members of these groups and looked after, the first time in their lives they’d received kindness, even just regular hot meals. Yes, of course it was grooming, but a young person won’t understand that overnight because someone shouts at them.

I’m not equating breaking Covid rules with terrorist group membership obvs, but the principle is the same. If you want to actually influence people to change behaviour, it takes a lot of time, patience, you also have to be really willing to listen and understand why people have formed the views they have, which means understanding the views they hold in the full context of the lives they’ve led. And that often involves listening to some very uncomfortable stuff and maybe even questioning your own opinions too. If you’re just going in there with “I’m right, you’re wrong and this is why” it just doesn’t work and you’ll always be disappointed with the outcome.

I really did feel like you @HaveringWavering in the first lockdown. I was pissed at rule breakers, felt everyone who broke the rules could kill someone, I was very frightened. I think what changed for me was that I had to go back to work and I had to face those fears. Many of my patients weren’t coping and were at high risk of hospitalisation or even suicide. I saw how much people were suffering due to the isolation and the anxiety. I saw the other side of it, I guess. I began to question blind adherence to all these rules at that point - and there was a particular situation I was in where such rigid adherence to the rules without regard for compassionate grounds caused a situation to get much much worse than it needed to have been. Many of my colleagues went back behind a screen in the second and third lockdowns, because they felt “work from home if you can” meant they had to, because technically they could. I didn’t, and took some flak for it. Who’s right? The law could not give a clear answer on that one, so I went with my clinical judgement and I’ll stand by that decision. I also see why other clinicians felt differently - or might have had patients who were fine being supported remotely. My experiences in work during this pandemic taught me that the law and “the rules” can’t always tell us what’s right. But not everyone will have experienced what I did, so of course will come to different conclusions.

HaveringWavering · 30/04/2021 10:28

@Temp023

I really am starting to resent the implication I don’t give a shit about Covid, you know nothing of the past year for me or my family OP. But looking at the risks as they are, in this country, now. I choose to make my own choices.
I said “don’t give a shit about Covid RULES”. Not the same thing at all. Clearly the personal risk assessment crew do give a shit about Covid, however they are misguided in their approach, in my view.
OP posts:
HaveringWavering · 30/04/2021 10:30

@RuggeryBuggery

Even the scientists have said now that two people meeting inside who are both vaccinated is extremely safe
Who have both had TWO doses at least 14 days ago. Try to read the news properly before you paraphrase it.
OP posts:
HaveringWavering · 30/04/2021 10:41

@YorkiePanda

in doing so, seeking to influence the behaviour of others

See that’s the thing. If that’s your endgame in your interactions, you’re always gonna be disappointed.

Actually changing someone’s opinion, mindset or behaviour takes a long ass time. I’ve worked with young people at risk of being radicalised. You know how long it took to get those kids/young adults to even CONSIDER that there might be some value in different opinions? It would have been really easy to be like “omg have you no shame”. But there were many, many reasons those young people had been attracted by such unpalatable groups and opinions. Belonging. Community. Friendship. Even safety - some were young runaways or from very chaotic home lives who had been taken in by members of these groups and looked after, the first time in their lives they’d received kindness, even just regular hot meals. Yes, of course it was grooming, but a young person won’t understand that overnight because someone shouts at them.

I’m not equating breaking Covid rules with terrorist group membership obvs, but the principle is the same. If you want to actually influence people to change behaviour, it takes a lot of time, patience, you also have to be really willing to listen and understand why people have formed the views they have, which means understanding the views they hold in the full context of the lives they’ve led. And that often involves listening to some very uncomfortable stuff and maybe even questioning your own opinions too. If you’re just going in there with “I’m right, you’re wrong and this is why” it just doesn’t work and you’ll always be disappointed with the outcome.

I really did feel like you @HaveringWavering in the first lockdown. I was pissed at rule breakers, felt everyone who broke the rules could kill someone, I was very frightened. I think what changed for me was that I had to go back to work and I had to face those fears. Many of my patients weren’t coping and were at high risk of hospitalisation or even suicide. I saw how much people were suffering due to the isolation and the anxiety. I saw the other side of it, I guess. I began to question blind adherence to all these rules at that point - and there was a particular situation I was in where such rigid adherence to the rules without regard for compassionate grounds caused a situation to get much much worse than it needed to have been. Many of my colleagues went back behind a screen in the second and third lockdowns, because they felt “work from home if you can” meant they had to, because technically they could. I didn’t, and took some flak for it. Who’s right? The law could not give a clear answer on that one, so I went with my clinical judgement and I’ll stand by that decision. I also see why other clinicians felt differently - or might have had patients who were fine being supported remotely. My experiences in work during this pandemic taught me that the law and “the rules” can’t always tell us what’s right. But not everyone will have experienced what I did, so of course will come to different conclusions.

The later rules did build in allowances for compassionate needs and bubbles to address isolation issues. I do appreciate what you are saying but my particular gripe is with people who are unable to wait two more weeks before going on a completely non-compassionate-grounds-based overnight jolly. It is a very simple rule to comply with. If you can’t cope with the more extreme ones, fine, but this one is very simple indeed.
OP posts:
HaveringWavering · 30/04/2021 10:45

@TheOneWithTheBigNose

Most human interaction comes down to sharing opinions and, in doing so, seeking to influence the behaviour of others

Did it work? Have they seen the error of their ways?

What about the principle that allowing harmful behaviour to pass without comment is what perpetuates it? Mumsnetters are full of exhortations to call people out, to speak up when it suits their own agenda, but suddenly speaking up is the wrong thing to do because you don’t agree and don’t want your own behaviour criticised?
OP posts:
Snoozer11 · 30/04/2021 10:53

So what if it's against the law?

There are many things that are legal but any decent person wouldn't do.

The whole point of the last year has been to prevent the spread of the virus. The law, which you go on so much about, makes absolutely no difference to how the virus is spread.

If your concern was another wave, then yes, I can understand why you'd be concerned. I would point out that positivity rates from tests is under 1%, that we are in a better position than even the most conservative of predictions of a worst case scenario, that opening outdoor hospitality and schools has not contributed to a rise, and that if you walk down the street, over half of those you meet are statistically likely to have had the vaccine.

But this isn't your concern. Your problem is with people "breaking the law".

I have found some people abhorrent throughout this, and I think those having parties in 2020 and the early part of this year are disgusting.

But we are in a completely different position now.

It is entirely possible to not abide by every law in the land, and still be an intelligent, decent, moralistic and good person.

HaveringWavering · 30/04/2021 10:54

The law, which you go on so much about, makes absolutely no difference to how the virus is spread.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that the law would have been revoked if it did not make any difference.

OP posts:
btwwhichonespink · 30/04/2021 10:56

@HaveringWavering

I feel a bit like I did when I woke up and found that we had voted for Brexit- surprised and massively disappointed in the intelligence of the U.K. population.
So you keep finding yourself on the wrong side of history?

Interesting......

btwwhichonespink · 30/04/2021 11:03

@HazeyJaneII

A few more weeks, on top of the 400+ weeks already behind us....You should be thanking people for their sacrifice ....You probably can't foresee where a 'just following orders' mentality can take a country but millions of us can.

Ah....overblown hyperbole, sacrifice and accusations of Nazism....got to love Mumsnet Covid thread - this little snippet sums it up beautifully, thank you for your sacrifice and free thinking @btwwhichonespink

As always, my reference is not to Nazi-ism but to Lenin/Stalinism - my area of academic interest.

Nice illustration of Godwin's law though :-)

tigger1001 · 30/04/2021 11:05

@ilovesooty

Actually I find significant numbers of people disappointing but no amount of haranguing them is going to make any difference. I can't control what they do : only my response to it.
Agreed. I can't control other people and in honestly I don't want to. I can control what we as a family are doing with regards to covid "rules". We generally have been rule followers but can't say I know or care what others around us have been doing. Neighbours, work colleagues etc. Life is much nicer when not stressing about what neighbours are doing with regards to"the rules" when we can't influence or change their behaviour.

Covid has been an eye opener in respect of human behaviour (I suspect my view on that and the ops view is very different) and I suspect that mental health issues will be a far bigger problem longer term than covid but much less people will care, and that is truly depressing.

99victoria · 30/04/2021 11:06

In our family I find it somewhat ironic that we have all been vaccinated except my 33 year old daughter who is a primary school teacher and has been working throughout since last May.

My OH and I are in our late 50s/early 60s but both fit and healthy, my younger daughter has had the jab because she works for Social Services (albeit in an admin role from home), and my Son-in-Law has just had his because although he is also 32 he is clinically vulnerable. The only one in our family going out of the house to work every day is my unvaccinated daughter!

She rang her surgery yesterday to see if she could get the jab because her husband is clinically vulnerable but they said a firm NO!

HazeyJaneII · 30/04/2021 11:10

Sorry @btwwhichonespink, I was thinking of the Nuremberg defence, and a post a few months ago which accused of being akin to nazi sympathisers, because I tried to stick to the guidelines.

I'm just tired of seeing people accused of being lockdown loving sheeple, mindlessly following rules, when we are trying to do our best to navigate our families safely through this shit show.

DrSbaitso · 30/04/2021 11:24

@Eilethya

Does this crazy lack of critical thinking and blind following of authority remind anybody of The Milgram Experiment but on a national scale?

I can't wait to read the reports on social behaviour in 20 years time Grin

We're not being asked to administer electric shocks (as they were led to believe) until the person on the other side stops screaming.

I mean, I have a lot of sympathy with what people are saying, but you don't help the case with nonsense like this.

dangerrabbit · 30/04/2021 11:24

Several kids in DD1s year have had sleepovers, however we haven't let DD attend these as if we let her break the law now, with what moral authority can we compel her to keep the law when she is a teenager if she sees us breaking laws ourselves?

Overitallnow · 30/04/2021 11:34

You do you. I'll do me thanks. I shall be driving my gas guzzling SUV to my second home for an overnight stay with friends leaving my teenagers at home having friends over. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Jamboree01 · 30/04/2021 11:47

@dangerrabbit

Several kids in DD1s year have had sleepovers, however we haven't let DD attend these as if we let her break the law now, with what moral authority can we compel her to keep the law when she is a teenager if she sees us breaking laws ourselves?
I’m sure she’ll thank you for that 👀

Poor kid

ilovesooty · 30/04/2021 12:04

@Overitallnow

You do you. I'll do me thanks. I shall be driving my gas guzzling SUV to my second home for an overnight stay with friends leaving my teenagers at home having friends over. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Is that really necessary? Can't you simply point out that you'll be making your own decisions without being aggressively goady?