My daughter does not want to go to grammar

[Scarletbutnotohara]

This is my first post and this group was recommended to me by a friend as an anonymous place to post rather than ask on Facebook!
She also told me to post in this section, not sure why but hope I’m doing it right!!
My daughter is in year 6 and will be going to secondary school in September.
She has got a place at a top grammar school. This was something she had wanted since year 4 after we started looking at schools to think ahead. We looked at schools as suggested by her school as to what would suit our daughter.
She loved the grammar and worked even harder to work towards the 11+, which she passed and consequently was offered a place at her first choice school.
In the last month she has made it very clear that she has changed her mind and doesn’t want to go there now.
I know she’s being influenced by her other friends at school who are mostly carrying on in indie schools and have told her many a story about this grammar.
My daughters happiness comes first of course, but I’m at a loss at what to do. Our financial situation has changed dramatically due to covid, and to continue in another indie school would mean some serious cutbacks. It’s possible, but it will be very hard. I feel guilty that I really want her to just be happy with the grammar school, but also guilty that I’m not offering her other options- I don’t know what the options are if I’m honest. Places have been offered. We could make the cutbacks and try and find a school for her that still has places.
We could send her to the local comprehensive school. That school does have places, but it also has a terrible reputation, the ofsted is ‘requires improvement’ and it’s well known in our area for being ‘bad.’ The children there stand outside smoking and a few times I’ve walked past, I’ve seen spitting, swearing and general bad behaviour. On top of that, the school has a high turnover of staff.
I’ve asked my daughter what she actually wants to do and where does she want to go. She says ‘anywhere but the grammar.’
Any advice please?
Am I being unfair to insist she tries out the grammar school and say if it doesn’t work out after a term, we can reconsider?
Is another 7 years of school fees Worth having to sell our second property that we currently rent out? (I Would feel awful for our amazing tenants- a lovely family)
Other good state schools are full with long waiting lists and they are nowhere near us. If she is worried about bullying at the grammar, I can’t consider out local comp as I’m sure it would be worse there!!
All advice welcome and Thankyou

She would be going to the Grammar School if it were my daughter.

Agree also that there may be jealousy in play with her friends and their parents re getting into the grammar. “Don’t worry darling that you didn’t get in, the grammar isn’t that good anyway”.

When I was in year 6 I was one of three from my class who got into the very good secondary - all of my friends went to the comp. This was just based on catchment areas and siblings. Everyone “dissed” our school. I started year 7 and forgot about all of them.

@SpamTasesNice

She’s your child. You dictate what she does

Also be honest with her about your finances. The indie school she wants to attend could cost the whole family their future -- your retirement plans and her uni tuition.

Have found sometimes those paying for education slag off non fee paying options to justify their own outlay and their kids will pick up on that.

This would also seem likely in this case.

The bottom line is that you cannot afford indie for secondary unless you make significant financial sacrifices that will affect the whole family. So she goes to the grammar. It sounds like you need to manage her perfectly normal anxiety about starting somewhere new.

I'm in Ireland so no grammar schools but I passed an entrance exam for a more academic school in a wealthier area for secondary and my parents wanted to send me there.
Unfortunately my next door neighbour was a year ahead of me in school and was bullied in the better school. Her parents moved her to the local secondary after her first year there.
I tried so hard to convince my DM that I should go to the local school with my friends and used my neighbour as an example of why I was right.
My DM said I had to do a year in the better school and if I was very unhappy they would look at moving me.
They knew me well, after a year I had made friends and it was familiar and also my friends in the local school didn't love it so it wasn't being presented as this wonderful alternative.
My DM told me years later she hadn't believed the neighbour was being bullied either, just thought she was very strong willed and wanted to be in the local school with her friends.
The neighbour told me in the pub this was true
I would say she is going to the grammar and if anything terrible does happen she is to tell you and you will of course move her. Just to give reassurance around the bullying.
Also if she is really concerned about the weed she can say her parents are very observent and strict and she can't possibly go home smelling of weed/dilated pupils as they would call the police.
The stoners will probably avoid her then.
Best of luck to her, it's scary but exciting going to a whole new place like that.

No way would I be making my whole family make serious cutbacks to send my child to a fee paying school when they had a place at a grammar they had not even given a chance yet. She may love it. I would send her for a year and then let her choose between there and the local comprehensive.

I agree with your dh. Normal wobble so be careful not to make too much of it. The horror stories about the new school are par for the course too. Secondary school is a big, scary place for Y6s.

@Dotted

Normal wobble and made worse by these frenemies. Any decent friend would encourage others about the process of moving schools not intentionally try and scare them. I had nightmares before joining my grammar and they were gone literally the first day I started. My sister tried the exact same tactics as your daughter and my parents didn't back down and she was fine and thankful for them guiding her appropriately. You're the parent here.

Agree with this. And just to say, my y6 dd is having massive wobbles about leaving primary - even though she’s moving to a good local state comprehensive with all of her friends. Covid has been really hard on them, I think they feel less confident based on the learning they’ve missed and more anxious about change - I would be really annoyed that her “friends” aren’t being more supportive. Settling in sessions etc might help?

Also, I turned down my parents choice of secondary school because I wanted to stay with similar “friends” - I always regretted it as they turned out to be cliquey bullies in year 8. Trust your gut.

Independent school fees do not stay the same. They increase over the rate of inflation. Children today are sometimes given too much choice. In my day getting into the Grammar was considered a wonderful achievement and we had to fight to get my daughter into the only one in our area. You need to talk to her as has been suggested and explain that all schools have issues and her so called friends are just trying to wind her up. Tell her to give it a try and then if it really doesn’t work out you can always take the 13+ route. Sometimes parents just have to be the adults and children, the children.

@Scarletbutnotohara I've read all your posts. I agree with those who are saying you cannot compromise your financial future for a 'wobble' by your daughter.

The stories she has been told strongly remind me of something a friend said when we were both at uni. We'd both gone to a similar high-achieving state school. It was great, amazing pastoral care, any bullying etc. was jumped on like a ton of bricks. Excellent school. She started uni and was in a class with a disproportionate number of private school students. Within the first few weeks it became apparent that they thought if you went to a state school you lived in a council house (they had no concept of anything else) and that all state school kids had their heads flushed down the toilet at some point

That's quite an extreme example, but I have to say I don't think your daughter should take the word of other private school students, who are carrying on in the private system, about what a state school is like. IME (and I have a lot of other stories) private school kids tend to be in a private school bubble and have no idea how normal what the rest of us are like until / if they go into the real world.

Agree with everyone else - it’s a wobble and probably partly due to others justifying their own choices. Of course all schools are different but, from my experience with DD, a child self motivated enough to work hard to get into grammar will do really well there. For my DD it’s the perfect blend of good teaching, plenty of likeminded people but also exposure to a real mix of children. I confess that I had assumed that all the children there would be self-motivated but it did become clear that many were there because it’s what their parents wanted so behaviour is certainly not perfect but it’s infinitely better than that at DS’s boys comp.

Do what you can to get her back onside - do you know anyone with a DC there who can talk to her? Explain re finances and make it clear that staying at indie would only be possible financially by big sacrifices from all of you - does she want to have to move house or never have a decent holiday or new clothes etc?

Mine would be going to the grammar. We had something similar with other parents urging us to appeal to the C of E which theirs had got into and ours hadn’t but he enjoyed the taster day at the second choice - and when we were offered a place at the C of E (we hadn’t appealed but were told by LEA that a place had come available and ours was first below the line) we said no. We never told him . Second school was in walking distance from our home and academically at least equal. Fast forward 5 years and other parents upset thAt theirs had not done so well and had not been as happy with the school and said they wished theirs had gone to ours etc. Ours is usually top school in city for progress 8.
More importantly, this kind of rumour spreading is common between kids and yes, some of it does come from parents justifying the money they are spending on private schooling. You have to be the adult here. I didn’t hesitate in saying no when I got the school place offer from the LEA as I knew he would be fine at the school he had been allocated, more than fine, and I never regretted it.
If it will help, show her the ofsted report, and make it clear that you are not prepared to risk your family finances when she has got into a great school that wanted to go to because of some stupid stories. All schools have had bullying incidents and drugs at times even the top fee paying ones. She needs to learn to make decisions based on what she saw herself and liked, and with your advice - not stupid stories spread by so-called friends.

I remember similar rumours when I went to secondary school. It was all rubbish and hysteria.

I had a massive wobble too as I didn't really know anyone else but it was fine in the end. Its all very normal...... I certainly wouldnt let her give up this opportunity based on year 6 friendships which probably won't even survive.

Send her to the grammer and save the money for uni. If she's a hard worker she'll do fine wherever she goes.

Send her to the grammar school. In all likelihood it will be fine and she'll settle. If she's really unhappy you could always pull her out at a later date.

In primary school quite a lot of my friends wanted to go gramma school. They didn’t have get in. I was clever enough but I didn’t Apply. We all went to the local comp. that school was absolutely crap. Bullying was rife. I often think why I didn’t try to get to grammar school. ONE Of my biggest regrets.

@listershologram

There will be bullying, smoking and swearing at all secondary schools.

I would send her to the grammar but acknowledge her worries and make it really clear that you want her to talk about any problems she has with it, and if after a year she is experiencing any problems then you can look at alternative schools. Explain that now it's too late to look at and get a place at some of the other schools you would consider, but next year places may open up.

You'll have a better grasp on post Covid finances by then and fingers crossed she'll be happy and settled.

Go with the grammar, she’ll settle in.

When mine was Y6, she started telling me that people got their heads flushed in the loos at her to-be secondary. Exactly the same rumours I heard about mine 40 years earlier! (and didn’t happen)

Also agree it sounds like a wobble.
I would be honest and say you can’t afford to keep paying. Remind her she worked hard and wanted to go there. Also that her friends have never gone there so are simply repeating gossip.
Has she had a look round? Is there chance to visit, meet the tutor, meet some other Y7 students before Sept?

Grammar, definitely, and I speak as a mum to DC at secondary indie school. Quite apart from the cost for secondary private school, which you acknowledge, your DD sounds like a prime example of someone who will thrive at grammar school.

We didn't have the choice of doing the 11+, but I wish we had. Your DD's friends will be doing everything in their power to ensure that your DD stays with them, whereas the reality (for those of us with older DC) is that friendship groups change hugely in the first years of secondary. Sadly, it's also true that those that wouldn't have passed the 11+ will slag off the grammar - and there will be an undercurrent of "it's not posh enough" too. Anything goes - bullying, underage sex, drugs - literally you name it and it will (allegedly) have happened at the grammar. Haunted buildings anyone?

If I'd been in your position I'd have told my DC that we simply couldn't afford indie (that stops that argument straight away), and that we would see how she felt at grammar after one year. That's long enough to build friendships, but not leaving it as an unattainable goal. And yes, get her involved in all the settling in things that the grammar school does before she goes. Maybe she'd find someone she could "buddy up" with before she starts? Good luck.

I was your daughter. I didn't want to go to the grammar, mostly because my friends weren't going. My parents thought I would be fine once I was there. I hated every fucking minute of 5 years there and was overjoyed to be able to leave to A Levels elsewhere. However, I did get a really good education which I would not have done had I gone to the shit comprehensive my friends went to. It's a question of priorities and only you can decide what your are.

I suspect right now she thinks the choice is between going to the indie secondary schools her mates are going to or the grammar. When in fact, it’s between the local comp and the grammar. Its time to have a real conversation about choices and money has a major influence on her education choices.

Talk to her about her fears and concerns and way up the pros and cons of comp vs grammar but be firm, another independent isn’t on the cards.

If your daughter had a particular choice of school that she was wanting go go to then I’d really urge you to heed those wishes. Or at least explore carefully the reasons. But she doesn’t.

It sounds as though the independent school is not really affordable. The local comprehensive is likely to be at even further remove from what she is used to at her present school.

The problems she has raised as regards the grammar are likely to be present in all secondary schools; to a degree. The only real red flag for me was the reported deficiencies in pastoral care/bullying. Do you know anyone at the school who’s parents you can talk to? What is the general ethos/feel of the school? What is the policy on bullying? What is the policy on isolation? I assume you have looked into those things. If you haven’t then that’s a priority. But it sounds as though this is more likely a bit of a wobble, exacerbated by knowing she will be going to the grammar without her peer group and fuelled by some unkind comments.

If going private is genuinely an option (albeit a tricky one) should the grammar turn out not to be a good fit, then tell her that. But only if it really is. And set a time to review (probably 2 terms not one I’d say).

I’ve seen 2 of my 3 children through the process of small independent school to grammar school. It was a brilliant fit for the younger of the 2, who is now thriving in 6th form. Less so for the older one. But hers was a complex situation. It’s a nerve racking situation. I feel for you.

Is this an all girls’ grammar? If it is (and I assume her prep school isn’t) then that will also feel very, very different. She might be worried about that. The grammar both my DDs went to is all girls. To be honest, though the younger one is very happy there, I’d probably have steered them differently if I had my time back again. That doesn’t really help you though if the only grammar option is single sex; I recognise that.

Best of luck.

I think you need to be upfront and present the choices as grammar or comprehensive.

The comprehensive would be fine if that's where her friends were heading & it was a decent comprehensive.

I also agree the ones going to independent probably tried to get into grammar and didn't pass so they're just a bit jealous.

I went to grammar school and really liked it. Still in touch with friends from there years later.

I don't think academically you would get better. Independent schools don't necessarily get top students - just ones with parents who have money.

I don't think offering choices at this stage will be helpful. It is scary to change, acknowledge that but assure her she will be among a completely new intake, many of whom will not know each other, and you will support her.