To only get socially married?

[Enormousnamechange]

Hi all

So here's the thing - DP is ambivalent about getting married (he'd do it for me but equally if we never married he'd be just as happy), and I have come to realise that all the things I want from marriage come from the social side rather than the legal side if that makes sense. I'd keep my own name regardless, and can't have kids so we won't be having any of our own, and financially I'm in a much stronger position and will likely be for the rest of my life for one reason or another. From what I know so far, getting married would if anything being a bad idea for me.

But I'd feel so sad never being someone's wife, and to grow old watching my friends get married. Never getting to do the dress and have the party. Never being able to introduce this lovely man to people as my husband. Having everyone wonder why we never got married and if we were really committed. You get the idea. But these doesn't seem like good enough reasons!

I have wondered about doing everything except the legal bit, and as no one would think they were entitled to know my legal/financial situation in any other circumstance they wouldn't need to know here either. We would live our lives after the non-legally binding ceremony exactly like any other married couple. I suppose it could 'come out' if we were to split but not need to go through a divorce.

The thing is I've never ever heard anyone else even think about doing this? It seems to totally solve my problem but I also don't know how people would feel - would they feel betrayed and lied to? But equally I feel that the particular ways in which DP and I are legally bound to each other are not other people's concern. DP's views on this are that he's bought in whatever I'd like to do and he quite likes the idea of being socially not legally married.

But what do you think? Have I lost the plot? Would you be upset/annoyed/amused if you found out you'd been to a wedding of two people who weren't legally married?

YABU - No sham weddings please
YANBU - Seems harmless enough

This thread is about if it is okay to lie.
the short answer is no.

However there are some multiple wives of muslim and other men in the UK who might be married in the eyes of Gd or a particular cult (eg flds in the US) and call those women their wives even though in law they only marry the first one.

One of my daughters married last weekend in church in London - first wedding at that church since the total wedding ban in December. it is up to each person what they choose to do - I think our family does tend to marry rather than just live together but people should do what is right for them but not lie. If you say this is my husband when he is not that makes you liar and people will think very badly of someone like that.

What you want to do isn't marriage though. Just have a commitment ceremony if you don't want all the financial trappings that come with marriage. There are humanist ceremonies and probably all sorts of other options I haven't heard about.

I'm a SAHM and got married last month so I could have all the financial trappings you want to avoid! Semi-joking - I was in a dreadfully insecure position financially and we needed to make things secure for us and the children. I was THAT SAHM you see on here, frantically stressing about financial security. It was actually because of the wise women of MN and their advice to others that I decided that marriage was something we needed to do - it's a contract with protections for SAHMs like me.

Do keep in mind that just because you are in a good position financially now, you might not always be - illness, job market etc... Perhaps you have family wealth or security. I'm not asking - just suggesting you think these issues through.

This you wrote in your OP:

But I'd feel so sad never being someone's wife, and to grow old watching my friends get married. Never getting to do the dress and have the party. Never being able to introduce this lovely man to people as my husband. Having everyone wonder why we never got married and if we were really committed. You get the idea. But these doesn't seem like good enough reasons!

IMO these really aren't good reasons to get married. I'd try and unpick why it is that you feel you need this sort of validation from others - because that's what this bit of your reasoning seemed to be about. People who know and love you will know how serious your relationship is because of the time you've been together and how you are with each other. You really don't need a wedding to prove that.

@Planty13 OP doesn’t just want the party - she wants the ‘social approval’ of being married. To be called wife etc.
Essentially all the social trappings of marriage without actually being married.

As others have pointed out above, doesn’t take much to go over the inheritance tax threshold nowadays, with property prices, life insurance etc. so I’d be thinking about having a civil partnership under the circumstances.

As many others have said marriage is a legal not a social concept - if you’re happy for him to walk away or indeed you to walk away in the future with half the financial security you have now then go ahead - personally I wouldn’t .

So many people on mumsnet are so invested in marriage and can’t get their head around that the benefit of marriage is for the more financially vulnerable party which doesn’t mean ALL women benefit. You are sensible not to buy into the marry for love bullshit that many on her propose.

Wow, so it's sensible for women to get married to protect themselves if they are the more vulnerable party, but it's sensible not to get married to protect the other person who is in a more vulnerable position..

My sister did this - she had a big handfasting ceremony and party. Not legal, but lovely anyway and all her family and friends showed up.

IMO these really aren't good reasons to get married. I'd try and unpick why it is that you feel you need this sort of validation from others - because that's what this bit of your reasoning seemed to be about. People who know and love you will know how serious your relationship is because of the time you've been together and how you are with each other. You really don't need a wedding to prove that.
Very well said.

Long term, committed partners are viewed as long term committed partners, which they are. A married couple is viewed as married, which they are.

If someone genuinely thinks their friends are bothered about the fact they have a long term partner rather than a husband, are they really friends to want in their life?

I honestly think it’s a bit sad that you love this man but don’t want to give him legal protection should anything happen to you. It’s like he’s been good enough to share your bed and for all these years, but not the financial benefits

Sure, he’s saying he doesn’t want your assets and that’s big of him, but I couldn’t take the approach of loving a long-term partner and not wanting them to be provided for legally.

I’m a realist, I try that marriages breakdown and assets are divided. I get that men run off with 20 years old, I get that sometimes love doesn’t last.

But often, it does. If it’s a long and happy relationship, chances are it’ll end upon a death, and not a romantic breakdown. You’ll have left your boyfriend in a very vulnerable position because of your fear that you’ll break up.

I think part of loving someone is wanting to protect them too. It’s a gamble, but ultimately, he could be in a much better position if anything were to happen to you if you were married.

Anyway, just my two cents. I’m off to socially marry Idris Elba.

A ship's Captain can perform a "marriage", it's not legal but would make a nice ceremony, it might also be quite a nice party venue.

Also, most people there would know it's not legal but have a nice day anyway.

Previous posters have set out the legal pros and cons, make the decision you feel is right for you

You reversed the sexes and asked "Is MaleEnormous BU to not want to marry me properly?" The answer to that depends partly on how long it would take to clear the debt.

If we are talking about 20 years to pay off the debt then he is pretty much committing himself to life with a debtor and it's down to him to decide if he trusts you financially and is willing to share that burden with you. And if MaleEnormous doesn't trust you to continue to clear the debt and to be financially responsible in future, then he is being perfectly reasonable not to marry you, but I wouldn't marry him.

If we are talking about 5 years to clear the debt, and given that you aren't in a hurry to start a family, I would say it is fair enough to wait til the debt is cleared and then marry.

Same if the sexes are reversed.

Regarding the dreams of having a big wedding, wedding dress etc...be careful because in a lot of cases this is quite a disappointment in real life. I had a big wedding (130 people), beautiful designer dress, cathedral ceremony, lovely bridesmaids. All of it. I really looked forward to it. And it went like a charm and it was great. But it was one day. It goes by so fast and it's sooo expensive and you quickly move on from it. It's a very distant blurry memory only 5 years on now. Don't do it just for the party! Most women don't enjoy it that much either, I had to get up at 6am to do makeup etc, the dress was a faff, the photos took ages, lots of problems with the seating, everyone wants sth from you etc etc

My daughter's 13 guest church wedding last weekend though avoided much of that, IHate

@Xenia of course you can avoid that but that's exactly what OP says she wants! Big party and a nice dress!

I can't decide if this is the most sensible thread I've ever seen or one of the saddest. I can see the OP's point and can't disagree with her wanting to protect herself and her assets in the event of relationship breakdown. I just find it sad that splitting up is seen as almost a foregone conclusion these days.

I married my husband because I love him, not for a party or a dress or what have you, (believe me I'd of been happier with a small registry office wedding) but because I wanted to be his wife and have him as my husband, maybe the decision to 'marry for love' was made easier by us having the square root of fuck all in the way of 'assets' I don't stand to 'gain' anything should we split up and neither does he. I just can't bring myself to see marriage through the lens of it being purely a legal contract. My marriage has brought me many years of joy. Maybe that makes me naive. I'm not sure if I care.

OP, the only person who can make these decisions is you (and your partner) though I would say if you are tying yourself up in so many knots trying to decide if the hypothetical idea of marriage is right for you then maybe it's not right now and you're letting societal expectation influence you. Marriage is a huge thing. Do it because you want to.

OP, you're in your 20s and have been in this relationship for 4 years. Why the rush to call him something else?
When I read your original post I assumed from the 'boyfriend' embarrassment were 40 or 50+ and the 'boy' part felt a bit silly for a guy with grey hair and an allotment! It's very, very normal to be in your 20s and 30s and cohabiting with a boyfriend. There's a lot of great advice in this thread about the pros and cons of both marriage and your (to me) weird plan but perhaps think about why the title itself is something that's stressing you now. If I heard one of my younger colleagues talking about their live in boyfriend I would in no way be thinking we'll that doesn't sound serious, I wouldn't bat an eyelid

I think that as you are both young, you really need to park this and wait and see what happens in a few years time.

You have avoided some questions - 'relationship specifics' as you call them.

These are crucial to the advice / opinions posters are giving you.

You are asking a BIG question but are not (unless I have missed it) answering some very relevant points given your main issue is a breakdown in this relationship!

• How long have you been together?
• Who owns the place you live in or do you rent?
• Are you currently putting a roof over his head (and he can't support himself?)

What you have told us is that one of you is infertile (and unless you know that for sure, 100% in your 20s, it might not be so black and white.)

You also said the other person doesn't want children. Again, in your 20 or early 30s, this may seem absolute but people are known to change their minds as they reach mid-late 30s.

You have said this man has huge debts and cannot support himself without your finances. He is paying off his debts.

He is 'ambivalent' about marrying or not. (In other words he's not bothered either way.)

These debt and children issues are something that could rock any relationship in years to come.

If you jointly own a home and are married, then divorce, unless your ex insists on 50-50 through legal channels, you should each get out what you put in. I know couples who divided their equity 70-30 based on what each had brought to the marriage.

You would not pay him maintenance unless he pursued it.

In other words, some of your concerns are not founded in reality.

Dropdtuning
Just out of interest do you have kids? Do they have your husbands surname or both names? I had to have a very lengthy heated debate with my husband on this and my children have both.

I have mentioned this before - I do not want a big party. There are a few specific wedding day moments I would love to have , which involve things getting ready with my mum and best friend, having a special moment with my dad, writing and saying the vows/not-vows, having some nice photos together. Things like that. Nothing big or fancy or extravagent and certainly not about having a "big party and a nice dress". I'd just like to have that time and those experiences with people we love.

I really can't stress that enough. It's not the want to be the centre of attention - I just feel the same want to have the same nice moments that most women look forward to and hope for. I want him to be my life partner and to be recognised as exactly that by our family, friends and anyone we happen to meet. I'm just uncertain as to whether marriage is the most sensible way to do that, which is why I'll now think over the points made earlier in the thread.

It is worth considering the decades ahead (all being well) and the conditions of pensions, professional perks like healthcare and the implications of ill health and potentially being unable to work. Over time the financial starting points become less relevant.

From what you have told us, OP, it looks to outsiders as if you 'doth protest too much' !

My gut tells me you are not as sure of this man or as committed as you want to believe.

You are already worrying about your finances if you got married and divorced. He is already in debt and you appear to be the main earner while he pays off his debts.

One of you doesn't want children and the other can't. Being many many years older than you, I'd suggest you keep an open mind on this because although you may both be in agreement now about no kids, this can change. He or you may get broody in a few years and find another partner or want to pursue fertility treatments.

Most people do not agonise over divorce and the finances if they are your age UNLESS they have doubts about the partner.
They understand all marriages are a gamble. But go into them trying to make them work and last.

Is there a tiny chance you do have doubts and the dress/ party/ fairy tale part you hanker after is avoiding the real issue? ie you don't want to commit [to him.]

It sounds like you are after a spiritual blessing of some sort.

I'm just uncertain as to whether marriage is the most sensible way to do that, which is why I'll now think over the points made earlier in the thread.

Hope for best, plan for the worst.

@TheLastLotus and? What is the etc? I know plenty of people that refer to the hubby or the wife.... many of them aren’t married. What else is there to social approval?

Wonder what Jerry Hall. Mick Jagger's ex would say about sham marriages ?

The really useful part of marriage are only really available through legal marriage. No tax due on transfers between husband and wife in life and thereafter.

I know people who refused to get married, lived in one of the parts of South London where house prices soared. Ended up having to pay inheritance tax to go only living in their house owned 50:50.