To only get socially married?

[Enormousnamechange]

Hi all

So here's the thing - DP is ambivalent about getting married (he'd do it for me but equally if we never married he'd be just as happy), and I have come to realise that all the things I want from marriage come from the social side rather than the legal side if that makes sense. I'd keep my own name regardless, and can't have kids so we won't be having any of our own, and financially I'm in a much stronger position and will likely be for the rest of my life for one reason or another. From what I know so far, getting married would if anything being a bad idea for me.

But I'd feel so sad never being someone's wife, and to grow old watching my friends get married. Never getting to do the dress and have the party. Never being able to introduce this lovely man to people as my husband. Having everyone wonder why we never got married and if we were really committed. You get the idea. But these doesn't seem like good enough reasons!

I have wondered about doing everything except the legal bit, and as no one would think they were entitled to know my legal/financial situation in any other circumstance they wouldn't need to know here either. We would live our lives after the non-legally binding ceremony exactly like any other married couple. I suppose it could 'come out' if we were to split but not need to go through a divorce.

The thing is I've never ever heard anyone else even think about doing this? It seems to totally solve my problem but I also don't know how people would feel - would they feel betrayed and lied to? But equally I feel that the particular ways in which DP and I are legally bound to each other are not other people's concern. DP's views on this are that he's bought in whatever I'd like to do and he quite likes the idea of being socially not legally married.

But what do you think? Have I lost the plot? Would you be upset/annoyed/amused if you found out you'd been to a wedding of two people who weren't legally married?

YABU - No sham weddings please
YANBU - Seems harmless enough

Surely in this day and age if you self identify as a 'wife' you are a wife (or husband) regardless of ceremony

Handfastings are lovely, a friend of mine gets Handfasted for a year and a day each time - and that means they get either a party, or their own private recommitment ceremony, every 366 days. That might be nice?

Marriage does have a status in society, even today - which as pps have said is to do with the recognition of risk and the acknowledgement of a couple's bravery in making a commitment that is hard to get out of. How vulnerable it makes you, and what a level of trust there is to do that.

the wide social acknowledgement of our commitment to each other and the life we are building together is what I'm after

You see, unless you marry, you don't get that! I don't see a couple taking a risk to make that commitment, so society doesn't have to recognise it. There is nothing for me to applaud.

It's like the other thread where the OP wanted presents like people who get married and have babies do. Marriage isn't a wholly positive fun thing, neither is having a baby- it's a huge personal challenge, yet with huge personal and societal rewards.

I think you sense a sort of "grown-upness" of people who are married and you want that for yourself, but you have not realised that they are getting that recognition because of the practical and psychological work they have put in.

You are trying to have your wedding cake and eat it, OP.

@Peanutbuttercupisyum we used the same metaphor You were more concise!

@FOJN

Have a commitment ceremony and exchange rings, tell your friends and family you will be referring to each other as husband and wife from that point on. Be open and above board with it and I've no doubt most people will respect your choices.

I think many adults understand boyfriend/ girlfriend terms feel as if they trivialise long term committed relationships and perhaps partner also feels as if it doesn't reflect the intended permenance of your commitment.

I don't think it's necessary to deceive to achieve what you would like.

Just as people who have been together three weeks call the other one partner. That's devalued the term. Some people are stupid.

I mean this in the nicest possible way and I say this as someone who has flip flopped about with whether I want to be married or not! It sounds like you're not 100% certain that this partner is the one for you, and you might be doing this event to prove to people (and maybe yourself?) that they are. If you really love this person, you see yourself with them for the rest of your life AND you want to be a wife, just get married! Sign a prenup it it makes you feel more comfortable. Otherwise it seems a bit odd having a wedding that isn't a wedding...

Equally if you don't want to be married and you want to stay in a long term relationship, that ok too! Try not too worry too much about what everyone else is doing and what they might think.

I honestly don’t see the issue. You don’t want to get married. You want a wedding. A wedding is just a big party with some vows/commitments. It doesn’t need to be legally binding obviously and I honestly can’t see the issue. How on earth is it fraud? OP wants a wedding. She will invite people to her wedding and HAVE a wedding. It’s no ones business if she signs legally binding documents or not?

DropDTuning
It wasn’t that long ago that all the woman’s property automatically belonged to the man when they got married. Men were legally allowed to rape their wives until 1991. Violence against women wasn’t officially recognised as a violation of their human rights until 1993.
There is no doubt that the marriage contract firmly has its origins in patriarchy. I think some of the romantic dream glamour that has been used to sell marriage to women stems from the fact that in its foundation previously marriage could be a very negative experience for women and divorce tend to reflect much more damagingly on the woman.
I am of course aware that the marriage contract has undergone a lot of updating but to deny that some of the archaic patriarchy is still very evident particularly in the ceremony. Men interesting don’t have the same pro marriage propaganda circulating in the mainstream culture. Although in some countries they are still incentivised with a dowry.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick

The social norm/traditions of:
The man being the one to propose.
Engagement rings.
White wedding dresses.
Bride being walked up the aisle by her father.
The groom, best man and bride's father being the ones to give speeches.
Throwing of the bouquet.
The bride taking the grooms surname.
Not saying that all marriages incorporate these, but the ones that don't are the exception to the rule.

I did literally none of those. I agree with you that they are patriarchal sexist traditions, but they are all optional (and pretty revolting afaic).

My marriage is not patriarchal in any way.

More women need to realise that the legal and economic importance of marriage can be done with absolutely no continuation of patriarchal traditions.

@CaraherEIL
It wasn’t that long ago that all the woman’s property automatically belonged to the man when they got married. Men were legally allowed to rape their wives until 1991. Violence against women wasn’t officially recognised as a violation of their human rights until 1993.

I'm aware of all of that. But I didn't and wouldn't have got married before 1993.

I am of course aware that the marriage contract has undergone a lot of updating but to deny that some of the archaic patriarchy is still very evident particularly in the ceremony. Men interesting don’t have the same pro marriage propaganda circulating in the mainstream culture. Although in some countries they are still incentivised with a dowry.

I did not incorporate any patriarchal elements whatsoever into any aspect of my marriage. They are all optional. I opted out.

The benefits of marriage are significant for most women, especially if you have children. To reject the legal and financial protection because of archaic traditions that belong in the dustbin is really cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Some of these comments are insane, people are really bored and nasty in lockdown.

OP do whatever makes you happy that’s all that matters. I’m about your age and the same financial situation with my partner. Marriage wouldn’t serve me any benefit and May indeed harm me down the line, but I too understand the want to be husband/wife.

Commitment ceremony sounds ideal.

[quote Hobnobsandbroomstick]@DropDTuning

I'd be interested to know which aspects of my marriage you'd describe as 'very patriarchal'. I don't believe there are any.

The social norm/traditions of:
The man being the one to propose.
Engagement rings.
White wedding dresses.
Bride being walked up the aisle by her father.
The groom, best man and bride's father being the ones to give speeches.
Throwing of the bouquet.
The bride taking the grooms surname.

Not saying that all marriages incorporate these, but the ones that don't are the exception to the rule.[/quote]
Also, I think you misread my question. I didn't ask what aspects of marriage are patriarchal.

I asked what aspects of MY marriage, specifically, are patriarchal.

@dropdtuning

You're right, I didn't read the "my" part of your question.

Obviously I can't comment on your marriage.

As PP have said, there's no such thing as social marriage. You're either married or you're not.

The definition of a wife is the woman that somebody is married to.

The definition of a husband is the man that somebody is married to.

If you want to be your DP's wife and call him your husband, you have to marry him.

Just see a solicitor to do whatever is needed to safeguard your assets and get down to the register office.

DropDTuning
I have no idea about what aspects of your marriage are patriarchal I also have no idea the date when you got married. But the marriage institution itself has its roots in patriarchy and I am very glad that women are now able to have this debate. Females now, have enough autonomy to weigh up the pros and cons of tying themselves financially to a man especially if they intend to remain childless. I would call that having at last the luxury of female independence to choose for yourself certainly not cutting off your nose to spite your face- although a husband could have done that without infringing your human rights up until 1993!

This is interesting. I’m the exact opposite op, we got married for the protection it brings but didn’t have a big do and never refer to each other as husband and wife. I tend to describe him as my partner. If people call him my boyfriend I literally don’t give a fuck (and I’m approaching 50). I know what our commitment is and what we mean to each other and I genuinely am not interested in how other people see us.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick
You're right, I didn't read the "my" part of your question. Obviously I can't comment on your marriage.

That was my whole point. You said that 'marriage is patriarchal'. I was trying to make the point that no, it doesn't have to be.

I know of someone who has been with their partner for over 40 years. He is late 70's/early 80's. She is late 60's. She has changed her name to his either by deed poll or in usage and calls herself Mrs. They are not married.

What happens to her should he die? Not sure if house is in his or joint names.

like hobsnobs I didn’t see your ‘my’

@CaraherEIL I have no idea about what aspects of your marriage are patriarchal I also have no idea the date when you got married

No aspects of my marriage are patriarchal.

It doesn't matter what the historical roots are. I am very, very well aware of the history of marriage. I am also very well aware that there is no reason to perpetuate any of the patriarchal traditions. Indeed, I think that women who do perpetuate these traditions are damaging other girls' and women's sense of what is possible/necessary.

It is entirely possible to get married and reject all of the patriarchal aspects. More women should do it.

The legal implications of marriage aren't just about splitting up. I know of a few couples who got married later in life, despite most people believing they were already married because of the benefits it gives upon the death or incapacity of one partner.

@dropdtuning

Kudos to you. It's still the exception rather than the rule though. Or at least in my experience.

@CaraherEIL like hobsnobs I didn’t see your ‘my’

I should have probably put it in capital letters or underlined it or something.

I'd have thought that any woman with an ounce of historical understanding and an awareness of feminism knows which aspects of marriage are patriarchal. It's a shame that so many choose to continue them.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick

Kudos to you. It's still the exception rather than the rule though. Or at least in my experience.

Absolutely it is the exception and that's why I believe it's important to challenge the idea that marriage itself is inherently patriarchal.

My marriage is, genuinely, a marriage of equal partners and that's reflected in everything from the fact that we didn't change our names, that I wasn't 'given away' (bleurgh), didn't wear a white dress, don't wear a ring, et cetera et cetera.

I think more women should be able to unpick the shitty sexist wank from the often very beneficial legal contract that is marriage.
Otherwise more often than not they end up harming themselves.

@RaginSpice

Some of these comments are insane, people are really bored and nasty in lockdown.

OP do whatever makes you happy that’s all that matters. I’m about your age and the same financial situation with my partner. Marriage wouldn’t serve me any benefit and May indeed harm me down the line, but I too understand the want to be husband/wife.

Commitment ceremony sounds ideal.

Totally agree. You don’t need to tie yourself financially to him if you both agree that it’s not right for you. So many people on mumsnet are so invested in marriage and can’t get their head around that the benefit of marriage is for the more financially vulnerable party which doesn’t mean ALL women benefit. You are sensible not to buy into the marry for love bullshit that many on her propose.

You should celebrate your relationship however you see fit and screw all the pursed lip “it’s not a real relationship” types. Their snobbiness about anything outside their typical marriage says way more about them.