To only get socially married?

[Enormousnamechange]

Hi all

So here's the thing - DP is ambivalent about getting married (he'd do it for me but equally if we never married he'd be just as happy), and I have come to realise that all the things I want from marriage come from the social side rather than the legal side if that makes sense. I'd keep my own name regardless, and can't have kids so we won't be having any of our own, and financially I'm in a much stronger position and will likely be for the rest of my life for one reason or another. From what I know so far, getting married would if anything being a bad idea for me.

But I'd feel so sad never being someone's wife, and to grow old watching my friends get married. Never getting to do the dress and have the party. Never being able to introduce this lovely man to people as my husband. Having everyone wonder why we never got married and if we were really committed. You get the idea. But these doesn't seem like good enough reasons!

I have wondered about doing everything except the legal bit, and as no one would think they were entitled to know my legal/financial situation in any other circumstance they wouldn't need to know here either. We would live our lives after the non-legally binding ceremony exactly like any other married couple. I suppose it could 'come out' if we were to split but not need to go through a divorce.

The thing is I've never ever heard anyone else even think about doing this? It seems to totally solve my problem but I also don't know how people would feel - would they feel betrayed and lied to? But equally I feel that the particular ways in which DP and I are legally bound to each other are not other people's concern. DP's views on this are that he's bought in whatever I'd like to do and he quite likes the idea of being socially not legally married.

But what do you think? Have I lost the plot? Would you be upset/annoyed/amused if you found out you'd been to a wedding of two people who weren't legally married?

YABU - No sham weddings please
YANBU - Seems harmless enough

If you want to be his wife and for him to be your husband then you need to need to get married- actually married. You can call yourself that without doing the legal thing if you like, and have the party or commitment ceremony and I don't see any real harm in that.

Mumsnet would have you believe that the only reason to get married is the legal side and protections. Most people I know get married because they want to be married, they want to be that person's husband or wife and to create one family unit with them. To be honest the legal/ financial side did matter to me, we had a baby on the way and I knew I'd be taking some time out of work to care for them. But mostly I wanted to be married to him and the way to do that was, yaknow, to actually marry him.

It's actually refreshing that you're not going into it naively and that you are thinking about protecting yourself and your assets - that's only what so many men do. BUT it's one or the other really isn't it- you either protect yourself by not getting married or you get married and make everything joint and make yourself vulnerable in that sense which is a risk. Because getting married is a risk and that's the flipside of the commitment aspect - you can be very committed emotionally or whatever but you're not actually putting anything concrete on the line unless you get married. My husband's commitment to me and our family is tangible in the sense of by getting married he's given me a stake in his assets, and vice versa. Its not very romantic but its what it boils down to.

Plus it's not just about what if you split and he gets a share of your pension etc. Its what if one of you is ill and the other has to make medical decisions, what if one of you dies? There's things you can put in place to cover those eventualities but getting married is probably the most effective.

I'm not even sure what side I'm on here really. I think its fine if you want to refer to yourself as his wife, fine if you want a party, understandable that you want to protect your assets to some degree etc - I guess I just don't think theres such a thing as socially married and don't think it would actually mean much in real terms.

Go back and count the number of times you have said " lose my assets" in your posts @Enormousnamechange .

This sounds ludicrous. Just have a party and announce to people you are committed I guess. People will no doubt assume you are drunk as this is odd. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is actually a fake wedding and really bizarre.

For someone who is so together with all the ideas and thoughts I also find it strange that you care what anyone else thinks of your relationship .

Why not have a Commitment Ceremony?

If you have a commitment ceremony, people will be scratching their heads while standing there wondering why you didn’t get married and are doing this instead. Hopefully your answer to them will be a lot less convoluted than so far on this thread.

So you want a fancy party and the princess dress but not the actual commitment of being married so its easier for you if you ever split up?

That sound so shallow and doomed from the outset.

@trevthecat

But you won't be husband and wife! It's like a child's make believe. Someone I know changed their name and then told people they were married and that it was the same. It's not the same. You are devaluing marriage

I've been happily unmarried to my partner for thirty years, we have two children and jointly own our home, and neither of us has fucked anyone but each other since we got together.

During those thirty years, my niece has married, divorced and is just about to marry again; my sister has married, divorced, had an affair with a married man and is now married to him; both my parents have married for the second time; my best friend has had an affair with her friend's partner - and that friend has meanwhile had an affair with another friend's husband; at least two further weddings that my partner and I attended together have ended in divorce....

Talk about the legal protection, by all means - it's important, especially with all those divorces and affairs flying about... but 'devaluing marriage'? Don't make me laugh.

Thank you everyone for your comments. For those asking for our ages, I'm late twenties and DP is early thirties. Fertility-wise - one of us can't and the other one doesn't want to. We're settled with this.

In all honesty I hadn't considered the later life and death points. We're both very career focussed and because of that most of the time we look 4-6 years in advance rather than decades. I'll have a rethink about the points raised about that and reconsider. Thank you.

On the points raised about my obsession with splitting up - it's not that I think it will happen at all. I don't think it will! But I am also not naive enough to be certain that it won't. I have just seen some awful breakdowns of previously really happy, stable relationships and marriages. I would be utterly devastated if DP and I were to end things, and would be struggling to cope even without going through a divorce. Maybe I need to stay off the Relationships board too! I absolutely back our relationship, but life happens and you just don't know.

And finally, on what other people think. You are right, I do care too much about what other people think. We have a large but well connected work social group so gossip gets around (another reason not to do a big lie, I now realise!) and we both care about how we are received by this group. This is something else I'll reconsider.

Babyboomtastic
You're right.
If adults decide not to marry because they're happy with being legally and financially separate then that's up to them. There's many situations where people might choose not to marry, including keeping assets separate, and as long as both people are happy then it's nobody else's business. If one person wants marriage and the other doesn't then the one who wants marriage is free to walk away, and probably should do because it's a big thing to disagree on.

The issue is wanting to pretend to be married without actually being married. Wanting a pretend proposal, a nice party and to pretend to be married is all make believe.

Why not just own being a happily unmarried cohabiting couple?

If you have a lot of assets and intend to leave them to your DP it might be worth getting married for inheritance tax purposes, so if you died he could inherit your assets tax free.

We got married at the point where we were committed enough together to throw our lot in with one another - that's the only way I can describe it. That's what I think marriage is: saying we're a team in all the ways, we'll take the rough with the smooth, and the state recognises that. I also didn't change my name or anything like that, and changed lots of the ceremony that I think are patriarchal and awful, but I did love standing with family and friends and saying how much we loved each other. I understand why you'd want that.

But.

The societal recognition comes from the risk. I think there's lots of reasons people shouldn't get married, despite love and commitment - particularly second relationships, or later in life, where say one person has a house and a pension and a child, the other doesn't, and any relationship breakdown would leave the unable to provide for themselves.

However in your case, you're just unwilling to take the risk. DH earns slightly more than me, for various reasons (most of them choice!) and is likely to continue to, but its very likely I will at some point bring a sizeable inheritance to the relationship. The idea of that money being split in two if we one day separate genuinely doesn't bother me - we've lived our life, and relationship, as a team, he's an amazing partner and we've always viewed everything as shared. If one day it all goes to hell - I don't see it happening now but we've put in enough years as a partnership that I think whatever happens next a fair division of assets would be 50/50.

If you don't feel that way, its not necessarily a bad sign, it may be prudent, but it probably is also a sign you're not as committed as you think.

One other thing to consider if inheritance - what do you think is more likely: you being hit by a bus, and your partner not getting sufficient support due to not having protections of marriage, or you splitting up? And if there's any chance of you moving to another country. Marriage is universally recognised but can bring even greater benefits in some countries than you'd realise, including allowances after death that would cost a fortune in life insurance and legal recognitions re: pensions etc that may not be possible in other ways.

Whether it's offensive to DP. I hadn't ever thought about it that way, as I don't think of it is as a thing he would do, more as a thing one could do. I don't ever think he would - but things can get so hostile and ugly in a divorce. You just don't know. He's always said he's not interested in my financial assets, always, but the difference in our situations is fairly significant (I'm not wealthy just normal, but he just carries a significant amount of debt) and if things were hostile he could be entitled to assets I've worked very hard to put together. I'll talk to him about it. Ultimately he gets to decide if he's offended, but I completely understand why he would feel that way if he did.

It is extremely offensive to him, yes.

I wouldn't want to marry someone who thought of me that way.

But then I also wouldn't want to marry someone who was more concerned with appearances and getting attention/status in the eyes of other people, rather than true commitment to the relationship.

I don't believe you are very committed to him, to be honest. I think you want the attention and the 'glamour' and the photographs and the 'making memories' and the teary-eyed video tributes of your 'friendship group' and your mum having to pretend to be interested in dress shopping and all the rest of that bollocks, but you don't really have much faith in the relationship lasting the test of time, so you don't want to deal with the additional hassle that comes with divorce rather than simply splitting up with someone.

I think people are holding up marriage as the great wonder of real commitment which would be credible if there weren’t so many bitter, backstabbing financially grabbing divorces. I think celebrate your love as you choose, set up your wills and power of attorney as you see fit. You are not bringing children into the equation which massively simplifies future legal ramifications. He can be your husband in life if not your husband in law. If he has large debt you can love someone and celebrate that love without tying yourself to their financial wagon. In fact you know that financially marriage to this man makes no sense for you if you want to safe guard your financial future. If he was pushing for marriage and you came on here and explained the difference in your financial situations most people on here would try to dissuade you from marrying him. That doesn’t stop you committing to spending your life with that person and celebrating that fact.

I've been to a commitment ceremony for a couple who were similarly placed. It was a lovely day celebrating their relationship. They don't call each other husband/wife though

Do you want to be each other’s next of kin? It’s morbid but but should something awful happen it was important to me and DH that we would be the person that would be allowed access/ make decisions. Marriage gives that protection etc.

@rosemary35

For what it’s worth, I think wanting to be someone’s wife, and wanting to call the man you love your husband, are good enough reasons to get married

Exactly.

If you are going to be with him for ever and you want to call him your husband etc... then why not do it? It doesn’t have to be expensive.
We had a registry office ceremony and then 20 close friends and family in a lovely restaurant and garden for a meal. We wore clothes we could wear again. It was relaxed and beautiful. It was pre- covid so we than had about 50 other friends turn up in the bar/garden throughout the evening. Everyone we love celebrating us and our life commitment. It was perfect. A wedding doesn’t have to involve taking out a second mortgage. If losing your assets in the future worries you then maybe take out a prenup... not a romantic thing to do, but what I’m saying is you can do it your way.

@HariboBrenshnio

I think it's a great idea. Hold a humanist ceremony or a commitment ceremony. People can know it's not legally binding. Have a great party with all your friends and family celebrating your love. Marriage is outdated and I really only think women who need financial protection should do it (SAHM mums etc).

Call him your husband - who makes up the rules on what you can and can't say? Don't bend to societal pressure and do you. I think we'll see much more of this in the future.

Sorry haven't RTFT but I agree with this. Have a lovely humanist ceremony - make it clear that you're not legally married and call each other what you like.

We had a registry office for the legal bit, lasted about 10 minutes in a horrible chintzy room. Then we had our wedding with a ceremony we'd planned ourselves, led by a humanist celebrant, incorporating a naming for our son, in a venue of our choice. Was fab!

Very very weird. We got married because we're in love, not for any legal reason. Having a pretend wedding wouldn't make him your husband.

I see marrriage as mutual protection. Yes, sometimes it benefits one partner more than the other, and at the moment you are financially stronger, but no-one knows what lies ahead. And there are other benefits to the legal side of marriage. Don't you want your husband to be your next of kin? Imagine you having no say in his funeral when your partner dies. Or do you want him to pay inheritance tax (maybe even have to sell your shared home) if you die first?

So mostly I agree with pp that you'd get more of what you want by marrying with a pre-nuptial agreement.

But the one thing that worries me is that little hint you dropped about his past financial "mistakes". So yes, I am not sure you want to be finncially and legally joined with a man who is not finacially reliable. I think you need to take a harder look at that before you decide to make a deeper emotional and social commitment (never mind the legal one!). Is he doing everything he possibly could be doing to put those past mistakes right? Is he fully financially responsible now? Are you sure he isn't going to do the same again, or something similar, at your expense? Because to be honest it sounds as if you are not totally sure about him and you're trying to cherry-pick. But really you're committing your future to the whole person not just the bits of him you like.

Don't assume things will stay the same forever. Right now, you may well be richer and healthier than DP, but things change.

I used to easily out-earn DH. Then, I had a breakdown and my mental health collapsed, and he now earns double what I do. There's absolutely no guarantee that you'll keep your job, your health or your finances.

I would also add that a will is no guarantee of security should one of you died. If you're not married, there's nothing to stop him changing his will tomorrow, and you'd know nothing about it until he was dead. Being married gives you a genuine claim on the estate.

Marriage also means:

• you don't have to pay inheritance tax to keep your home.
• you can claim Bereavement Support Payment if your spouse dies.
• you can get some state pension/have claim on his private pension - many private pension schemes won't automatically pay out to someone who's not a spouse. Similar to the will scenario, he could change the name of his beneficiary and you'd have no idea.
• access to money/funds in his name if he dies before you.

I had a friend whose partner tragically died in an accident, and they weren't married. She had to deal with all the stress of being bereaved with no financial support in place. It was bloody tough for her and marriage would have made it MUCH easier.

@Enormousnamechange I can sort of see where you’re coming from.
I think your best bet is to speak to a lawyer and see what your options are for protecting your assets.
Contrary to posts here - you do NOT automatically pool assets upon marriage. And you don’t get 50/50 automatically.
‘Loss of assets’ normally happens when one party gives up their career etc to care for children.
And his debt doesn’t automatically become yours when you marry...

I think in your very particular circumstances it's fine and it's common in some religious communities. I wouldn't advocate it in general, because women would normally lose out. But this doesn't apply.

I'd be upfront with people but not make a big deal of it.
E.g. @Enormousnamechange AND Enormousnamechange'spartner wish to invite you to celebrate with us our commitment and love on X date, y place.
If you then want to refer to each as husband and wife then fine.
Plenty of people to a tiny registry bit first (in jeans) and have hand fasting, religious blessings etc that are the main service people attend.

I've tried to be as reasonable as I can about this as I know it's an emotive topic but 10 pages in I am starting to struggle with essentially being called shallow and attention-seeking, and saying that I'm not committed to DP. That is all really hard to hear, and not an accurate reflection of me or our relationship - if I were talking about a different topic I'd come across totally differently!

I fully acknowledge that IWBU to have a fake wedding and that it is a bad idea - the options are carry on as we are, obviously non-wedding commitment ceremony or get married. I need to do more research on later and end of life implications. The point on the universal recognition of marriage is a really important point and not one I'd considered, so I'll be looking into that too. Overall, there are more protections that marriage offers than just financial and I need to read up on them before making any decisions.

Thank you for all of the points raised, I've learned a lot and have a lot to consider. I'm happy to continue to discuss the pros and cons of a financially independent woman without children choosing (or not) to marry, but would rather avoid my specific relationship from this point.

I think people are holding up marriage as the great wonder of real commitment which would be credible if there weren’t so many bitter, backstabbing financially grabbing divorces
It's not a great wonder of real commitment, but it is a greater level of legal commitment than cohabiting and no amount of name changes, fake proposals, pretend wedding days, calling each other husband and wife whilst being unmarried changes that, nor do the existence of divorces change that.

Many people have very happy, loving, successful, unmarried cohabiting relationships with their partners for decades, some marriages end after a year. They are legally different though and when people pretend otherwise we get threads where posters in precarious financial positions are told not to worry about marriage because "we've been happily together for 14 years and all the marriages we know ended within 3, you don't need marriage for commitment hun, you know if he is a good man".

Why does the OP need a pretend wedding if they're happy being a financially separate, happy, loving, unmarried couple?