To think most parents don't really give a crap about this...

[reaching0ut]

....as long as their kid isn't the one being bullied or ostracised? I think at some point when everything is rosy many parents profess to feel this way, but actually they're totally oblivious or thanking their lucky stars that it's not their child coming home in tears, not sleeping, eating and feeling generally worthless and hopeless.

LemonRoses
They don’t have to be best friends with children they dislike.

Literally no one is saying that.

I think @MiddleParking has completely nailed it.

Can't we just be civil and respectful rather than be kind which tends to end up being a fucking doormat.

I was brought up to be /kind. And think about the struggles of others (in a ‘he can’t help that because )
Result: I’ve always looked to find excuses for. Bad behaviour, accepted crap I shouldn’t have and generally put everyone else needs before mines. I don’t think it did. Me any favour as an adult

@wesowereonabreak. Not if they're continually bullied and mercilessly isolated. That's not good for anyone. There are studies that show being bullied at school can adversely affect children's personal and professional lives for decades afterwards. School is toxic for some children. They learn that they are odd and worthless and that sticks with them for the rest of their lives

I.was bullied from pre school onwards. I didn't want kids forced to play with me. I didn't want them to pretend to be nice fir show. That was just torture tbh cos you were just waiting for that moment you knew was coming where the teachers back would be turned and they would at best go back to ignoring you and at worst starting with the piss taking.

I.tgink lulling kids into a false sense of security like that is a bit mean tbh

I get what she Means about forcing more situations on kids. That's exactly it. Their games their way and u have to be grateful. Funnily enough the uptake fir my playground worm and snail rescue was dismal. They didn't want to do anything I might be interested in or enjoy.

Lol, it's the academic children that usually are bullied. Maybe you need to aim this at the average kids, or the sporty kids, or the kids lacking in academic as well as emotional intelligence.
Also, occasionally being targeted by bullies is part of life, at some point in life, your child will be a victim of bullying. To me, the parents that fear this fact of life is the parents that either have zero experience of being bullied or they were the bully. They have a preoccupation with their child avoiding any sort of victimisation at any cost and will react severely when they are. I have been bullied, I know at some point my children may experience the same and will need the tools to deal with it. You can preach 'be kind' til the cows come home, it is a fact that many many people you come across are not kind, some are down right evil and you need to teach your kids how to deal with that.

Its not even that some people are just unkind. Its that some people just won't like you. We need to teach kids that nothing will change that and to just be civil/polite is fine.

I dont think teaching them that every thing is about receiving lots of praise or validation. No one owes anyone anything. Something not involving you, or being about you, or gushing about you is unkind. Stop looking for problems where there aren't any. If that makes sense. They really are just one of million of other people and in reality most won't give a crap about you and we all need to learn to deal with that instead if taking it personally

@Whatwouldscullydo

Its not even that some people are just unkind. Its that some people just won't like you. We need to teach kids that nothing will change that and to just be civil/polite is fine.

I dont think teaching them that every thing is about receiving lots of praise or validation. No one owes anyone anything. Something not involving you, or being about you, or gushing about you is unkind. Stop looking for problems where there aren't any. If that makes sense. They really are just one of million of other people and in reality most won't give a crap about you and we all need to learn to deal with that instead if taking it personally

I agree. I really think this is a pertinent point when posters get upset about feeling excluded by ‘school gate mums’ and ‘cliques’ etc - if you’re giving your child that they are likely to end up having a bad time and feeling hurt/excluded where there is no need.

But being nasty to other children is one of the ways in which kids climb the social "pecking order" at school. It's not just that they "don't like" other children so much as that they deliberately exclude them and encourage others to do so as well. School is not like other real life situations. As an adult, there's no way I would waste my time hanging around with people who made it clear that they didn't like me and excluded me. Life's too short. But as a child, you can't just walk out and go and find another school.

But you can teach them to not be the victim all the time.

Why would you take a child happy on their own reading a book who gets on with their class as a rule and force them into group situations with people who aren't there friends and make them responsible for everyone else feeling good about themselves whike you are actually not having fun ir doing what you want to do.

Stop teaching them that being on their own is a bad thing. That kn order to be important in the world you need the praise validation and likes of the people around you all the time.

Bully. Active bullying should be dealt with. Bit being shy or reserved or happy I your own company is not a character flaw we need to "cure" by making yourself miserable and selling out on who you are.

My DD1 (now 12) has always struggled with making friends. When she was in primary school, she used to try to hang out with DD2 (now 9) and her friends, which in the end caused a lot of stress for DD2, and caused resentment from her friends. I’m relieved that DD1 has moved up to secondary school now.

The school handled it the best they could. DD1 is young for her age emotionally, and they gave her a role as ‘buddy’ to younger children in the school, which did take some of the pressure off DD2.

So yes, I do agree that kids shouldn’t be made to be support workers to children who are on their own.

I don't think parents worry about children who play happily by themselves. It's the ones who come home silent, withdrawn, lonely and sobbing who they worry about. The ones for whom always being left out, sitting by themselves, having no one to play with are not good things.

It's not about wanting praise or recognition all the time, it's about having and enjoying friendships. Yes, you can't force friendships on children, but at least let's not pretend that those unfortunate children who are a bit socially awkward are being deeply unreasonable in wanting to be friends with other children rather than always being alone.

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

I agree. It was really sad to see how hard it was for DD1 to make friends. She does have one friend she hangs out with at times, but she gets excused when this girl plays with other friends. I don’t expect that friend to look out for DD1 constantly; she has SEN herself as it happens. I also didn’t think the pressure should fall on DD2, who is 3 years younger.

The school’s approach was great, giving her a role as ‘buddy’ to younger children. She loved it, too. They also tried to link her with a buddy, not the same one each time.

Another thing they did was give her and other children who were struggling coaching in how to make friends.

There are things schools can and should be doing to help children who are lonely and struggling. (I’ve been that kid myself so I do get it.)

The academically gifted kid and the lonely kid are most likely the same kid.

Thing is I would have been considered "lonely and struggling"

Cos I spent my break times hiding from kidd who took the piss out of me. I then had to be nice to them.in class becuase the teacher tries to get you to socialise .

It was far harder work than just being on your own.tbh. being " on guard" with friends who really aren't your friends is exhausting

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

I don't think parents worry about children who play happily by themselves. It's the ones who come home silent, withdrawn, lonely and sobbing who they worry about. The ones for whom always being left out, sitting by themselves, having no one to play with are not good things.

It's not about wanting praise or recognition all the time, it's about having and enjoying friendships. Yes, you can't force friendships on children, but at least let's not pretend that those unfortunate children who are a bit socially awkward are being deeply unreasonable in wanting to be friends with other children rather than always being alone.

Yes exactly. No one is worried about children who like being alone. I’m lucky to have friends after telling them in high school I liked them but preferred to spend my lunchtimes reading in the library than hanging out It would be the most awful feeling thinking my child could be mean to someone (but I’m sure not as awful as to spend school days miserable and alone) And just taking a little time out of your day to say hello makes a difference.

@Mittens030869. I'm sorry to hear your DD struggled so much...it's awful when you see your child upset.

Some children do need a bit more "coaching" in how to make friends. I'm not talking about violent, unpleasant children but more the shy, socially anxious ones who can't just join in but enjoy themselves when encouraged to do so. Or the overexuberant ones with no filter but hearts of gold who their peers find are just a bit much. They can be helped to tone it down a bit. But then their peers need to be persuaded to give them a second chance, which is where encouragement from parents and teachers can be useful.

As adults, we shouldn't sacrifice other children by forcing them to "babysit" the ones who are struggling or play with them at the expense of their own friendships. But there are little things we can do to help and hopefully shift children from the "victim" role to just being an accepted, if slightly odd, member of the pack, which may be enough for them. We can also ensure that we provide safe spaces for children who do just want to be left alone.

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

I agree with you. Especially as I saw it from the other side, the pressure on DD2 to feel that she had to babysit her older sister. I’m glad they’re in different schools really.

There is something that jumps out at me from this thread.

The adults who were the 'lonely kids' at school don't appear to think that the solution is to 'be inclusive' or to 'be kind'.

And there are only a few posters who point out that its the academic kids who are often the lonely kids.

My experience of school was i didn't fit in anywhere. I could get along reasonably with everyone but i wasn't part of their social group and both parties knew it.

That was a far more lonely feeling than days when i managed to go to the library and just read a book or do some homework. I'd much have preferred that.

I was academic and that didn't help. I wasn't so much actively bullied to a great level until I was about 16 when one girl tried to ostracise me from a whole group and made life uncomfortable for them if they were nice to me.

I also was saddled with a disabled girl in class by one particular teacher to 'be kind'. She was in mainstream school and was capable of doing everything if she tried but most of the time she preferred to get certain people to do things for her when she could get away with it. She started to insist i did her work for her in this one case (in addition to my work) 'because she couldn't write'. Something she miraculously could do in every other class. She was really manipulative and nasty about it. In the end my Mum complained about how she was treating me and I was the one who got hauled in by the teachers over my behaviour. I still to this day maintain that it wasn't my responsibility to do her work as well as mine and if she needed that level of support it should have been provided by school. I definitely shouldn't have had to put up with the abuse her and her best friend gave me over it. (She left school at 16 in the end and had a baby by the time she was 17 ironically). I was told I had to be kind (I'd been given the task because I was bright and conscious in the first place!) but it definitely was at my expense and i was taken advantage of.

Honestly i swear there is a complete disconnect with reality going on here.

I want my son to be more popular than i was, but I still want him to be academic because he has to compete with everyone for a job at some point. I want him to be a nice kid who knows when someone is taking the piss and taking advantage of that generousity of spirit.

Its a balancing act. Its too easy to say 'well just be nice' when there are others who are happy to trample all over you, the second you give that inch. Its far better to teach kids to be emotionally and practically self sufficient in some areas.

Equally i do think theres a lot of kids who are in social groups who think the stigma of being alone is justification for never challenging the shit behaviour of others (when they themselves havent been involved) so effectively turn a blink eye rather than doing the right thing.

The most i think about that meme the more i think of how far it misses the matk, doesn't understand problems and almost places blame and perpetuates the stigma and stereotypes of being the lonely kid or the academic kid rather than helps it.

It reinforces the idea that its bad to be on your own and that its bad to be academic. Its completely contrary to what those two groups who are at the bottom of the universal school pecking order (which is the same pattern seen throughout the world regardless of culture) in the first place.

Maybe we should start by looking at why what that hierarchy is and why it exists and structurally analysing where its coming from rather than putting virtue signalling meaningless memes on social media which we think make us look good but actually are worse than useless and become part of the problem.

Yes.

DS’s primary school and my current school have good buddy systems where kids can go and just hang out, talk or ‘be’ with others who are essentially ‘on duty’ at break and lunchtimes.

It’s fab because the buddies have chosen to help out, not forced, and there is a rota so they all get their own time with their own friends too.

Fwiw the best thing i learnt when i was 17 was that i didn't have to have a mate holding my hand to do certain things. I could just do them on my own.

It didn't stop me feeling like a failure for not fitting in. My early twenties were pretty miserable because of that. I just got on with it and did a whole bunch of things many people wouldn't have - possibly because they were held back by this idea that you have to do x, y and z with someone.

Its only in my late thirties that i started not to care and feel it did didn't matter as i was happy enough doing my own thing. Still felt like a loner and wished to meet similar people.

Its only in my 40s ive found a good bunch of people who are fairly likeminded and misfits.

I kind of wished id not worried about it so much though and hadn't had this sense of failure drummed into me.

Im not bad in social situations at all. Im decent at small talk (DH who has always been popular and had loads of friends struggles with it more).

I dunno. I think we are focusing on the wrong things. But then its my habit of seeing the world through a slightly different lens to everyone else which is the thing most responsible for me being an outsider in the first place. Its also the thing that makes me academically bright...

I was bullied and and alone. I was also academically bright in a place where it was seen as a bad thing, doubly so if you are a girl. Group work was the bane of my life as well as anything to do with teams.

Thing was, people treated introversion and my isolation like it was MY problem and not my peers being either indifferent or actively hostile. It was more on me than them. Fortunately - I wrote off my home town as a place for my future before secondary school and figured that if I wasn't actively a dick to people then they had no reason to complain about my behaviour. Spent most of my time in the library - was glad that for the most part people didn't try to push unwanted buddying or excessive group work on me.

What would have made a difference is coming down hard on low-level bullying and sexual harassmant. Less whining over school uniform, more cracking down on name-calling. I never expected people to be friends to me but would have liked it if more attention was payed to cliques if things were going sour.

But yes, I think most parents do tend to go down the 'I'm alright Jack' route since victim-blaming is easier than coming to terms that your child may at times be weak-willed and a dick to others.

In my experience it is the bystanders that are as bad as the bullies.

In terms of afterwards - Once I left I did lower my boundaries a bit too much - was quite sarcastic and defensive to most people except for a few at school. This leads me to have had some friendships that were a bit questionable in hindsight and falling into the role of emotional toiled since I was so glad to have people who liked me.

You can guess what happens when YOU need support - less "Oh Samus is having a hard time" more "WAHHHHH! Emotional toilet is blocked!"

That and the fact as I'm ND I often misread people and might not know if someone is being unkind - have mistaken rudeness for social awkwardness or being blunt for instance.

@FindingMeno

I care so much about this. I want my children to be happy and healthy above all else and academic success is a poor second. I want to turn out adults who care about others. Who will speak up when needed. Who will never ignore people just because of their differences. Who aren't self-absorbed. If I can do this, my work is done. I'm always so proud when my children take a new kid under their wing, or chat to a person on the bus, or rush to pick up something that an older person has dropped, or see someone acting differently and consider they may have a hidden disability rather than giggling. Worth more than any academic achievement.

Bullshit. I bet you care about at least some academic achievement. Surely you'd want your kids to be able to at least read,write and do maths to a basic level. Maybe even be able to carry a conversation on a varied range of topics.

As I've said before it's not an either/or situation. Being polite and respectful to others is not negated by academic ability. Being academically able doesn't come at the expense of empathy and basic decency.

I also bet a lot of the people saying they don't give a shit about academics don't have kids 2/3 years behind that are constantly struggling.

Samuelsgift in dds school (girls state) if you are a bystander to bullying you also get into trouble if you do nothing. Dd2 year 7 and a pal reported a bullying incident recently that was nothing to do with them but saw it so they reported it partly to do the right thing and partly not to get into trouble themselves. I think this is great - evil flourishes when good men do nothing and all that

I'm reading RedToothBrush and SamusIsAGirl posts and nodding along.

I still went and did things even by myself but even now I have wobbles about being judged for being by myself in some places - which I guess is kind of sad in your 40s though since having 3 kids and DH I often can find someone one want to tag along.

Boundaries and not being such a people pleaser have been areas I've had to work on as an adult - and I don't want the same for my children.

I have had to push back on them being quiet being a bad thing and try to avoid them being labled shy - with mixed results.

I worry DD1 takes on too much emotional support for her group and it's one of many reasons I keen for her to have a fresh start for 6th form. It is hard to teach though as previous group we put in boundries for her - no phone calls at night or during meals and there was a neagtive reaction resulting in her being bullied - though she found new people subsequently.

We know someone from univeristy who had a mental breakdown as the support a person in their life demanded meant they failed their course and hit depression - they've never recovered really while said person went on without a backwards glance. So boundries are really important.