To think most parents don't really give a crap about this...

[reaching0ut]

....as long as their kid isn't the one being bullied or ostracised? I think at some point when everything is rosy many parents profess to feel this way, but actually they're totally oblivious or thanking their lucky stars that it's not their child coming home in tears, not sleeping, eating and feeling generally worthless and hopeless.

@MiddleParking

There are no parents who consider kindness a non-priority in their value system for their kids. Having kindness as a value doesn’t mean that you’re kind all the time nor that your kids will be. If your kids know that you’ll be absolutely horrified if you hear of them being unkind they’re pretty likely to just become more adept at a) being unkind in ways that are not easily intervened on by adults, and b) manipulating and lying to adults if they do get told on.

Let’s be honest, there are some.

It's very important to me that my children not be deliberately mean, hurtful or bullying to other children. I'd also like them to actively consider and value other people's feelings.

However, I am also very wary of giving them the impression that they do not have the right to choose who they give their time, energy and friendship to. Female children especially are still given the message that they owe their resources to anyone who might want them (these days in the guise of "beee kiiind") regardless of what it costs them to give. I don't believe that and I think it's a harmful message.

So it's a fine line to tread.

You're right MiddleParking. I'd be a rich woman if I had a pound for every time a parent has said to me 'but my child would never do that...', There are some children who learn that their parents think the sun shines out their nether regions and can be really sly about how they target others.

However I've also met some parents who don't think kindness is a priority. Some seem confused between kindness and weakness, whilst others get quite cross if you suggest two students who don't get on should avoid each other and stick to being civil because "I'm not telling DC to be fake!" 🙄

I hope
Thier kid isn’t the bully

OP hasn’t come back - is she a troll?
Women are already guilted enough into being martyrs at their own expense. We don’t need this rubbish.
And for the record - I was brought up to be kind etc and am good with people and emotions. The result was that I had to solve everyone’s problems and it took such a toll.
These days I dole out random kindnesses, mind my own business and am much happier.

Well, we know a few things now.

Everyone's child is academically gifted.

Everyone's child is kind and sensitive.

But being too kind and befriending a loner took its toll on the little darling, and therefore s/he had to be told that s/he could stop. S/he is much happier now.

Kindness is a weakness in girls and shouldn't be encouraged.

The purpose of education is to get a highly paid job in middle management.

Nobody's child is a bully. Where they all come from is a mystery.

I think it's a difficult balance sometimes. I was bullied and I told both DD that I would not tolerate any kind of bullying and to be kind. The end result for one of my DD’s was that she modified her own behaviour whisky with a friend undergoing tests for ASD/autism. I had encouraged her to be mindful that this friend was having a hard time, I found her crying and she admitted that her friend was being mean and actively telling her to be a better friend because she had something wrong with her. I finally witnessed one incident and found my DD physically backing away. I went to the school and was accused by parents of being discriminatory when we were called in. I will always ask my DD’s to be respectful but she should not be made to feel that it comes at a cost to her own wellbeing.

@eeyore228 this happened to me too.
Every time I went out of my way to make friends with the loner/left out etc etc it always ended in me being somehow held responsible for their mental state. Which had an impact on me - I was a people pleaser, easily guilt tripped and gullible for a long time because of this rubbish. Thankfully I grew up and now have a spine.
It’s one thing to stand up for a kid being bullied (e.g girls gang up on each other and kick someone out of the group, this someone should be befriended).
It’s another to befriend someone who’s a loner - only to find out that there’s a reason nobody wants to be friends with them.
As pp mentioned the small circle of friends for kids with autism is a good idea - as the friendship is moderated by adults. This worked for my autistic partner. I’d fully support my child participating.
But forcing a child to support another and consider the problem magically solved is just adults shirking their responsibility and dumping it onto vulnerable children. It’s vile.

@TheLastLotus I felt awful because I had essentially allowed that to happen because I didn’t want my children to become someone who didn’t appreciate differences and wanted them to be kind. It had an effect on DD because she felt she wasn’t good enough. We have had a big chat about being respectful and not nasty if you don’t get along but you never stay friends if you’re frightened or upset. Ask for help or find new ones.

I teach my child that the most important things are kindness, being happy and always trying your hardest.
But I don’t expect them to sit with the lonely kid if there’s a reason they’re on their own. Last week a boy spent playtime shouting and swearing at all the other boys and kicking them purposefully during football. I wouldn’t make my child sit next to him that day.

I agree a small circle of friends for a child with autism is a good idea. One of my children is autistic. One of my other children dealt with this fantastically at home. Unfortunately in school and outside school spirts clubs the adults in charge thought this would be a good reason to effectively put him in charge of other kids with autism. It made my son withdrawn, he needed space away from autism when he wasn't at home. A group is a much better idea as it prevents stress and responsibilities falling onto a child, in my child's case even tho he was used to his siblings autism pushing into an effictively caring and support responsibilies between the ages of 8 and 10 was very wrong he needed support and understanding himself.

My children went through school before this “be kind” thing came about.
Doesn’t mean they were no kind but I didn’t push for them to befriend the loner. In fact in school my youngest was probably the loner as apart from the fact they were all born in the same school year he had little in common with them so didn’t met his tribe until college where he was mixing with people with the same interests.
I always taught you don’t have to like someone but you do need to be polite to them.

School is different from most real-world situations because children are incarcerated there. They can't leave.

Yes, as adults we can make our own friends but as adults we can also choose to leave or avoid situations/people where we feel uncomfortable. Would I stay in a job for 7 years where nobody liked me and I felt miserable and side-lined all the time? No, I wouldn't. I'd leave and find somewhere where I fitted in better.

If we force kids to go to school, we need to make sure it's a safe space for them.

I was very proud of my son that once helped a boy that was being bullied. He told me that other boys were were shoving him around every day. My son tried to keep an eye on him and befriend him but later said that was impossible because this boy seemed unable to change behavior or even keep away from his tormentors. It was obviously not a task for a 10 year old. His words were " It is like he wants to be bullied". I think we need to try to understand why kids are bullies but also bullied kids need help learning social skills too. They might be repeating a behavior pattern learned elsewhere. We can't leave it to the children

Jellybabiesforbreakfast

You are right about that, people forget how little control you have in school even when you are in your teens. You have to be with people who may bully you, harrass you and just generally not like the fact you exist and yet you are expected to spend much of your waking time with them. You don't get to control much about what you can do all this time so it is critical that as much attention is payed to designing out needless stress and bad behaviour alongside setting up situations which reward altruism.

So many adults are blind to this - either it is wilful ignorance of perhaps blunt force trauma at the base of your skill when you turn 18?

It’s another to befriend someone who’s a loner - only to find out that there’s a reason nobody wants to be friends with them.

I think this is often unfair. An ostracised child will cling to the one person who has been kind to them. Not good for either child. Also, ostracised children don't have the opportunity to learn "pack" behaviour in the way that popular children in groups of friends do. So they get less practice socialising. Often their behaviour may make children who are within the "pack" uncomfortable because they have not had the same opportunities to suss out where the boundaries are and how to be friendly and engaged without being over-eager and off-putting. And also children on the edges of the pack will be very reluctant to befriend the outsider because they will be afraid of losing their place in the pack.

It's a really difficult problem to solve and not one that can be dealt with by the children themselves. That's why you do sometimes need adult involvement. It may be that adults can intervene to help the formation of a new pack where the ostracised child will fit in better (so move classes around, concentrate several children who are having similar difficulties in one class). In the worst-case scenario, the school should at least provide a safe place for outcasts from the pack so they are less visible and less vulnerable to the pack animals.

From helping in a school I can honestly say - most parents are so pushy with acedemics and do bugger all to make sure the kids are nice to others! The nastiness towards others at a young age is shocking and very common and that is a school in a good area. The name calling, manipulation, lying and teachers just brush it off as nothing but when you have to put up with kids doing that to you every day - it's hell! I'm always seeing the same kids sad, the same kids being mean and the upset ones are told to stop whining and the bullies put on the tears and say they never did it. Teachers don't want to tackle it because the parents kick off at the hint their kid isn't perfect so the easiest route is to let it fester because the poor kid beingade to feel awful will stay quiet.

All parents should teach their children to care and be kind, to understand that manipulation isnt ok, names and rudeness isn't OK, and just because your kid is fine, doesn't mean that others are, maybe your kid is fine because they are the ones making others upset... Just spare some time to bring up kids with kindness and respect for others, it's not tricky. The world would be a far better place!

@bemusedmoose I feel like you just explained why Boris Johnson is so...Boris Johnson.

So agree about the pack comments friends with sensitive sons who didn’t really fit in at primary have been pleasantly surprised that the big comp is better as they find their tribe.

Talking to my year 7 yesterday about the scarier girls - she was very clear that their friendship group is 8 ish so no bullies can touch them just too many.

In the worst-case scenario, the school should at least provide a safe place for outcasts from the pack so they are less visible and less vulnerable to the pack animals.

The secondary I sent DD1 to used to have these facilities - access to library - carers and main, clubs spaces for certain children to go on bad days - then a change of head and lots of politics - succession of temp heads and it all went. Even library only allows Y11 and above in and only open some lunch times.

Apparently before first head the school has a reputation for bullying, and I think a lot of these thing may have been brought in in help prevent them. Covid has made it worse as they cannot mix between year groups.

Now they don’t even allow phones as the children need to be socializing at break and lunch because it's good for them.

There’s been a marked deterioration in behaviour according to my children though thankfully they have groups – big enough that they can avoid most drama – and where there’s been some the school has stepped in when we approached them with specific problems.

But I do feel bad that it's not the school we first picked - I suspect we'd have looked eslewhere to buy if we were looking now to avoid having this secondary as catchment.

I think the op is a bit cynical and the two are not mutually exclusive - you can care about your child's academic achievements as well as instilling values in them. And often it's the academically gifted kids who are themselves bullied.

Couldn't be prouder of my 10yo ds today. I got called over to speak to his teacher at pick up today, who told me ds wasn't in trouble but he'd been involved in an altercation which had led to him being really quite upset. Two of his good friends were picking on a quiet, academic boy, saying he's rubbish at football etc. Ds stepped in and told them to lay off him, even though one of the boys is one of his best friends. An argument ensued during which ds would not back down, which spilled over into the classroom. He ended up crying to his teacher because "it wasn't fair he was being bullied like that just because he's not good at football".

Ds isn't hugely academic, he's not a high flyer at sports either - pretty average in fact. But he is very sociable and popular among all the children and I was really pleased to see him use his status among his friends for good, even though it put him in the firing line. And he wasn't ashamed to be seen to get upset about it all, either. He wears his heart on his sleeve and will always do the right thing. Many parents bring their children up to do the same.