To think most parents don't really give a crap about this...

[reaching0ut]

....as long as their kid isn't the one being bullied or ostracised? I think at some point when everything is rosy many parents profess to feel this way, but actually they're totally oblivious or thanking their lucky stars that it's not their child coming home in tears, not sleeping, eating and feeling generally worthless and hopeless.

Break times are another "pressure point" for certain children. There are ways that schools could address this. At primary school, more structure and range is needed in terms of activities rather than allowing a free-for-all.

good grief, children need to learn a bit of independence and manage social situations, they shouldn't be given a hand hold until they are 18!

And what about the kids who hate being forced in activities? It's a BREAK in the middle of a learning and organised day, give them one!

@askingforfriend my children either had whole class parties or only 2 or 3 friends in primary. Leaving one child out is what I would class as actively unkind.

But I'm not going to tell them they can't choose their own friends. Also I have several children and I work full time. I'm not at the school gates and I don't know most of the children in their classes. Many parents just don't get involved at all for similar reasons.

Things like this piss me off to no end. They are always phrased in absolutes and portray and either/or situation.

I care about both. I care about my kid doing well and also kind and polite .

I won't force her to befriend children that aren't nice to her. I do expect her to have at least a basic level of respect and decency towards all her peers.

good grief, children need to learn a bit of independence and manage social situations, they shouldn't be given a hand hold until they are 18!

Adults can leave social situations which make them feel uncomfortable. Children are forced to be in school five days a week for years. Because they don't have the option of leaving, it's reasonable for school to make adjustments to reduce the stress for children who struggle.

Twee twaddle.

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

good grief, children need to learn a bit of independence and manage social situations, they shouldn't be given a hand hold until they are 18!

Adults can leave social situations which make them feel uncomfortable. Children are forced to be in school five days a week for years. Because they don't have the option of leaving, it's reasonable for school to make adjustments to reduce the stress for children who struggle.

Imposing activities is not making an adjustment, it's forcing more situations on the kids!

And at some point, you do have to learn to navigate social situations. There's a limit on what work situation adults can leave. Unacceptable work place you leave, things that are not ideal, make you uncomfortable, you have to suck it up because you have bills to pay!

It does a world of good to children to learn to be with others independently. They might need to make efforts, be less shy, be less braggy, learn not to be the golden child, push through their insecurity.. it's good for them.

I did well academically but had few friends...id rather dd had friends and was happy than academically gifted .

@wesowereonabreak. Not if they're continually bullied and mercilessly isolated. That's not good for anyone. There are studies that show being bullied at school can adversely affect children's personal and professional lives for decades afterwards. School is toxic for some children. They learn that they are odd and worthless and that sticks with them for the rest of their lives.

[quote Jellybabiesforbreakfast]@wesowereonabreak. Not if they're continually bullied and mercilessly isolated. That's not good for anyone. There are studies that show being bullied at school can adversely affect children's personal and professional lives for decades afterwards. School is toxic for some children. They learn that they are odd and worthless and that sticks with them for the rest of their lives.[/quote]
I think if there's opportunity adults should lead by example.
Dynamics can change pretty quickly when an adult is involved in the games/activity, especially with younger children.

Personally i read the 'adjustments' thing more as just giving kids the choice (as in independent thought) to either go and hang out with mates outside or to go and do something quietly by themselves if they so wished.

Rather than enforcing anything on anyone.

That i think its pretty healthy and reflective of adult life where you dont have to get involved in certain situations.

Again its this crap where everyone keeps immediately jumping in as things being black and white and not shades of grey.

It's worth remembering that bullying isn't just something that some kids have to tough out while they're at school and then they're magically free from its consequences when they leave school.

The consequences for bullied children can be lifelong.

They include social isolation, depression, lifelong feelings of inferiority, severe anxiety, trust and self-esteem issues, PTSD, increased risk of drug and alcohol abuse, increased risk of suicide and poor health and economic outlooks.

Studies have shown that the effects of severe bullying on children are comparable to the trauma caused by child abuse in the worst cases.

Schools should absolutely do everything in their power to prevent children (to whom they have a duty of care and who are essentially legally "imprisoned" in schools for their formative years) suffering this harm. This includes making changes to how break times are organised to provide safe places for children and encourage inclusion.

[quote Ultimatecougar]@askingforfriend my children either had whole class parties or only 2 or 3 friends in primary. Leaving one child out is what I would class as actively unkind.

But I'm not going to tell them they can't choose their own friends. Also I have several children and I work full time. I'm not at the school gates and I don't know most of the children in their classes. Many parents just don't get involved at all for similar reasons.[/quote]
and that seems perfectly fair.

School is where children learn the skills to navigate adult life. Do we want future generations to take an 'I'm alright Jack' approach or would we prefer them to exercise some social responsibility?
These are the people who will be our police officers, social workers, teachers, HCP etc. They'll be choosing our care homes!
Personally I think that asking kids to be a bit welcoming to those on the fringes, to not collude in bullying and to make an active choice not to be a dick, is not asking a great deal.
'BeKind' has been appropriated by arseholes who want to stamp all over women's boundaries and it is important that children, especially girls aren't socialised to always put the needs of others ahead of their own. But actually, being kind in the sense of being a bit thoughtful is a good thing. It doesn't cost anyone a great deal to be friendly rather than not but it makes a great deal of difference to the life of the isolated or bullied child.

Can't we just be civil and respectful rather than be kind which tends to end up being a fucking doormat.

It's definitely possible to care about both academic DC and others.
They're totally separate.

A girl started in DD's class when they were 8 she was EE broken English, she was trying to be friends DD didn't want the hassle she has asperger's.
I asked DD to consider how hard it was for this girl, they're best friends going strong 4 years later, interested in the same unusual stuff.
DD begged me back then to ask teacher to stop the girl with the sad face following her around.

@RedToothBrush

Can't we just be civil and respectful rather than be kind which tends to end up being a fucking doormat.

I always tell the kids I work with they don't have to like everyone or to play with everyone,but there's absolutely no reason to be mean to someone.

My eldest DS is autistic so this is massively important to me and I have worked hard with both of my younger kids who arent to be kind and inclusive to everyone. It does seem to work as my other DS is always praised at school for being the kid who will play with everyone and include all the kids.

Being civil and respectful isn't being mean.

It's tricky. I don't have children but I always encourage my nieces and nephews to be kind and share. I also encourage boundaries. As an adult we don't force ourselves to befriend everyone but most adults will try to include everyone.

It would be so much easier if children were just nice to each other. There's no need to pick on anyone, just have different friendship groups. If someone is sitting alone unhappily then encourage them to join in... Its unfair on children to sacrifice themselves for others constantly.

@RedToothBrush

Can't we just be civil and respectful rather than be kind which tends to end up being a fucking doormat.

I agree.

Everyone can have their own group of friends. It doesn't mean you have to "be kind" to everyone but it does mean you shouldn't be mean.

The problem with very young children being kind is that some others are used to getting their own way always. This usually ends up with the "nice" kid being pushed around.

There’s not a lot you can do to stop your kid being mean. It’s an unpalatable truth that being mean in one way or another is a pretty useful tool to have in your armour at school and children can find it quite enjoyable and that it adds to their own sense of belonging to an in group. I can’t think of a single person I went to school with who was never mean - we were all mean to each other lots of the time in small ways, and much meaner to our friends than people outside the group who weren’t really on our radar, but those groups were all doing the exact same thing. Knowing how and when to be mean made navigating the social mechanics of school tolerable. And the meanness went on in parallel to what looked like fantastic, close, supportive, enjoyable friendships - and they were in lots of ways and still are. Pretty much without exception we had parents who were lovely, kind people and absolutely taught us not to be mean and would have hated the idea that we were. And we’ve all grown into kind, not-mean adults who would hate the thought of our own children being mean and will teach them not to be. But I don’t realistically envisage my child getting to the age of 18 never having been mean or exclusionary and I will seriously eye roll at parents who can’t believe that their child would be.

I care so much about this.
I want my children to be happy and healthy above all else and academic success is a poor second.
I want to turn out adults who care about others. Who will speak up when needed. Who will never ignore people just because of their differences. Who aren't self-absorbed.
If I can do this, my work is done.
I'm always so proud when my children take a new kid under their wing, or chat to a person on the bus, or rush to pick up something that an older person has dropped, or see someone acting differently and consider they may have a hidden disability rather than giggling.
Worth more than any academic achievement.

Great post Middle. That’s the truth for most of us.

I want my children to be happy and healthy above all else and academic success is a poor second.

Except of course that academic success sits alongside the other two very comfortably. Children who are encouraged to achieve academically tend to have better mental and physical health, better options after school and higher earning potential. That takes them out of poverty - one of the biggest markers and causes of misery, ill health and social isolation.

The idea of bright, well educated and supported children with lots of extracurricular activities sitting around lonely and bullied just isn’t born out in reality.

Children need to learn to be kind. To recognise their own advantage and to have a social conscience. They don’t have to be best friends with children they dislike.

Autism awareness posts also wind me up, having had an autistic child in a mainstream school I can assure you most parents aren’t in the slightest concerned about autism awareness when there is a chance it may have an effect on their child. It’s the sharing of posts on fb that winds me up when they are just blind to the fact that they don’t put into practise in real life