I would never want to be with a man who had used a prostitute

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

I hope I haven’t unwittingly ever been. When I know some friends of friends who have on stag dos etc. I find it really hard to reconcile with the fact that they then have girlfriends, wives, children. I can forgive people a lot of things, and I sort of believe that everything should be forgivable, but for some reason my visceral reaction to this is very extreme. I feel like I can more easily find sympathy for a terrorist, which probably isn’t rational, but I just feel like this is something I can’t accept. It’s so upsetting.

@Ginuwine absolutely agree. The “as long as she’s not trafficked” line is nothing but lip service. Men aren’t checking, they are doing it with full knowledge that the woman may be there against her will.

Whether you choose to forgive or not, you can still end any relationship or not enter into one. It's a deal breaker for the OP and no doubt many other women, if not most.

As for the point about children and custody, I would have thought you could argue it shows an attitude towards women, and also given that there are websites promoting or reviewing prostitution, no guarantee that a child would not find out about this should a phone or PC/tablet not be 100% inaccessible to the children concerned and the man have viewed websites or sent messages. Getting evidence as I am sure a man would think up some comment such as 'I was only joking, I have never used prostitutes' as a challenge at a custody hearing.

[quote nickymanchester]@BrumBoo
No, if I had any inclination that he was using prostitutes I'd absolutely question leaving my children with him.

You do realise that the courts would disagree with you on this point. The family court is very much about putting the welfare of children first. How do you think this point would be argued in court?

I'd be interested to know your thoughts[/quote]
Of course I do, and I'm not saying I'd be able to stop him seeing the children over it. I'd certainly make a big fucking deal over it though. The fact is, most men who do use these services don't shout it from the roof tops, so I'd probably never know. Openly talking about it like my relative does, as casually as talking about popping to Tesco for milk, I mean using prostitutes is the absolute pits anyway but that type of man has no morals, respect or decency.

Not the type of person you'd want around children, and you can certainly argue the legalities of that in court. Paying for sex in the UK is illegal, going abroad for it can easily suggest that you are trying something even more sexually illegal. If other illegal behaviours work against parents, it may well be a factor in a hypothetical court case in terms of custody.

I know several women (and a few men) who engaged in sex work of their own volition. That's pretty common in areas where it's not criminalized. If a rapist pays his victim afterwards, it's still rape. Likewise, if one participant in consensual sex pays the other afterwards, it's still consensual.

I wouldn't like it and agree it is seedy. Many women use it as an independent job they pay their taxes enjoy their profession.
It certainly needs cleaning up and legalised removing the criminality.
Banning it will drive it further underground.

@Naunet

So given that most men (probably all), are not checking whether the woman is trafficked or not, 100% consenting or not, is there an argument for setting up the sex industry with a proper regulatory body, full regulations and so on. However unpalatable it is, sex work is not going to disappear so how does it get improved, made safer.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

I’m not sure I believe that sexless marriages could be a key driver of prostitution. It doesn’t factor in any of the stories I do know. I’m open to any evidence on this but either way it doesn’t change the exploitative nature of prostitution. Such an explanation does seem to tie in with a narrative about sex being a need or an entitlement - something which edges towards the sinister for me.

My brother is now divorced but he confided in me that for many years before the split it was very much a what he called "dead bedroom" situation. For a period of eight or nine years (they stayed together until the children left school).

However, my brother moves in a very different world to me.

If you remember that recent thread about Mumsnet high earners, he would very much be one of the top 1% or so.

As a result of that he got into the world of "sugar daddies" (paying an allowance to a younger girlfriend or mistress). You need to be really quite well off, apparently, to afford a mistress.

I am not in any way condoning this, I see no difference between that and just cheating and having an affair with someone.

But he did say that he met others in the same situation as himself and there was a common thread of what he called a "dead bedroom".

As a percentage of all marriages, I'm sure it's not a massive but I'm also sure that there are plenty of marriages that are like this.

It certainly needs cleaning up and legalised removing the criminality.

But decriminalisation hasn’t worked out well in Germany, why would it be any better here? Have you not heard the stories coming out of Liverpool’s red light district?

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]@Ginuwine My view is I don’t think the entitlement should be explained away as something innate that can’t be changed. It seems just as much a socially constructed idea, a story that is told to excuse the harm caused.[/quote]

How do you propose to change this entitlement?

Depends. If I’d been with someone for ten years and married then found out they had seen a prostitute once before they met me, would it kill my marriage? It’s really
None of my business. I can’t see it would end my marriage. But if I knew before I ‘fell’ for then would it put me off....I DONT know. but the thought doesn’t make me feel sick to my stomach or anything. Some countries give state supported persons money for prostitutes a few times a year. It’s part of their financial award. ( maybe Sweden or Denmark or somewhere?) the belief being that everyone should enjoy sex in their lifetime and for some it may not be as easy to meet and engage with potential partners as it is for others. And if the sex worker is a FREE AND WILLING participant, I don’t think it would put me off ..

So given that most men (probably all), are not checking whether the woman is trafficked or not, 100% consenting or not, is there an argument for setting up the sex industry with a proper regulatory body, full regulations and so on. However unpalatable it is, sex work is not going to disappear so how does it get improved, made safer

Well look at other places where it has been legalised and regulated. Trafficking in those places has only increased.

@PurpleOkapi

I know several women (and a few men) who engaged in sex work of their own volition. That's pretty common in areas where it's not criminalized. If a rapist pays his victim afterwards, it's still rape. Likewise, if one participant in consensual sex pays the other afterwards, it's still consensual.

That's not the point though. The act of paying for sex degrades the whole act into a seedy paydays, as if using someone else's body for your own needs is a commercial transaction. It's not even a sliding slope from 'mutually consensual act' to 'non-consensual slave trade' - it's a vertical drop. For every one person who's convinced themselves that selling their bodies works for them as much as the punter, there are hundreds who have been forced into it. Never mind the fact that it again perpetuates the idea that sex work would be OK if regulated - no, it's never OK, it's delusional. Men should never ever be given an ounce of opportunity to think that they are entitled to sex, especially if they can just 'pay for it'. It so so incredibly damaging as an ideology.

[quote sweeneytoddsrazor]@Naunet

So given that most men (probably all), are not checking whether the woman is trafficked or not, 100% consenting or not, is there an argument for setting up the sex industry with a proper regulatory body, full regulations and so on. However unpalatable it is, sex work is not going to disappear so how does it get improved, made safer.[/quote]

The regulatory body idea is interesting - but who upholds standards?

When you consider that factories producing clothing in Leicester are inspected so few times that people are regularly exploited, payed illegal wages, held against will etc.. and there's an actual framework and inspectorate in existence.. then how would you enforce the standards for sex work with this in mind? It would need a serious amount of investment in both police resources (to combat the thousands brought here by organised crime) and officials (inspections, monitoring licensed premises) to ensure the standards were met.

Plus illegal pop up boutiques (ugh) would still thrive and would undercut on price (uuugh)

@sweeneytoddsrazor as others have said, regulating sex work has had the opposite effect. Again, making it legal both puts more women at risk and perpetuates the idea that 'in some circumstances it's ok to buy sex'. No it's not, if you can't get laid in a normal manner that's simply tough luck.

I've just very recently been in this exact scenario! I was seeing a guy for 4 months and everything was going really well. But then he mentioned that he had paid for sex a few times when he lived I'm Thailand (14 years ago). I finished things on the spot as I just couldn't get past the lack of respect for women.

@BrumBoo

Paying for sex in the UK is illegal

No it is not.

Prostitution is (for the most part) totally legal in the UK. It has even been taxed for the last 20+ years.

In fact if an escort or an agency's earnings are high enough then they are also obliged to register for and charge VAT on their services.

What is illegal are the following:-

Soliciting in a street or a public place

Controlling prostitution for gain - ie being a pimp

Managing a brothel - although often it's the women themselves who are charged with this offence when two or more of them work from the same location or employ a maid

Causing or inciting another person to become a prostitute for gain.

Trafficking for sexual exploitation

going abroad for it can easily suggest that you are trying something even more sexually illegal.

Why should something be even more...illegal ?

I don't see how the existence of prostitutes causes anyone to believe they're entitled to sex from anyone who doesn't want to provide it. Just because someone chooses to sell a sex act to one man doesn't mean she's obligated to sell the same act to another. If she's not willing to, then that's the end of it - no one is entitled to anything just because they want it. As in any transaction, you need both a willing buyer and a willing seller.

To my mind, it comes down to bodily autonomy. An adult woman has the right to decide who she has sex with, full stop, and she has the right to make those decisions for whatever reasons she wants. The legality of her sexual encounters shouldn't be based on anyone else's opinions about what's good for her, or good for society. I'm more worried about that slippery slope than any other here.

@Naunet You're right it hasn't worked for Germany, even countries who legalised cannabis are having bigger problems.
I don't know the answer, unfortunately as long as men are buying and women are desperate it'll never be banned.

[quote nickymanchester]@BrumBoo

Paying for sex in the UK is illegal

No it is not.

Prostitution is (for the most part) totally legal in the UK. It has even been taxed for the last 20+ years.

In fact if an escort or an agency's earnings are high enough then they are also obliged to register for and charge VAT on their services.

What is illegal are the following:-

Soliciting in a street or a public place

Controlling prostitution for gain - ie being a pimp

Managing a brothel - although often it's the women themselves who are charged with this offence when two or more of them work from the same location or employ a maid

Causing or inciting another person to become a prostitute for gain.

Trafficking for sexual exploitation

going abroad for it can easily suggest that you are trying something even more sexually illegal.

Why should something be even more...illegal ?[/quote]
Fair enough, I thought exchanging money for sex was still illegal in the UK.

As for 'more illegal', of course there's levels of seriousness to crime, as any law reflects .

You seem to be determined to argue for the protection of men in their perverse behaviour of using women for sex. That's absolutely fine but we all have our lines. Mine is very hardline on using people for sex purely for your own gratification and makes one a very disturbed person for doing so.

But just saying if you can't get laid in a normal way then tough luck isn't going to work. I don't know if legalising it would work, but I do think something needs to be done to make it safer and less risky for the sex workers, and like it or not just saying tough luck isn't the answer, for the men buying the sex or the woman desperate enough to sell the sex,

@PurpleOkapi why would we not consider what is best for society? That’s the basis for an awful lot of policies. It’s not the sex act that’s being restricted, so not the bodily autonomy (though there are fields of activity where we do place limits on bodily autonomy). It’s the economic arrangement around it. We regulate economic arrangements all the time.

@sweeneytoddsrazor

But just saying if you can't get laid in a normal way then tough luck isn't going to work. I don't know if legalising it would work, but I do think something needs to be done to make it safer and less risky for the sex workers, and like it or not just saying tough luck isn't the answer, for the men buying the sex or the woman desperate enough to sell the sex,

That's pretty much just saying 'men can't help themselves, so let them pay for sex or deal with the consequences'. No, absolutely fucking unacceptable. As ever, boys and men need to be taught that they are not entitled to sex just because they want it. No No No No and fucking No again until it sinks in. Women can oy sell sex because they known men will buy it. The very idea needs clamping down on harder than ever. You pay for sex? You force yourself on a woman, partake in any none consenting manner? Hard jail time, no ifs or buts.

The regulatory body idea is interesting - but who upholds standards?

I remember hearing a podcast once which featured a woman from Canada, who had to pay a licence fee to her local authority in order to work legally as a prostitute. The fee was pretty high, which essentially meant the government became her pimp, expecting her to have sex with x number of men a month in order to pay for her licence. In return, you got pretty much nothing. None of these schemes ever seem to really focus on the best ways to protect and help these women.

The OP is bizarre. The mention of terrorism is in bad taste.

But just saying if you can't get laid in a normal way then tough luck isn't going to work

Why? Women cope, why can’t men?