I would never want to be with a man who had used a prostitute

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

I hope I haven’t unwittingly ever been. When I know some friends of friends who have on stag dos etc. I find it really hard to reconcile with the fact that they then have girlfriends, wives, children. I can forgive people a lot of things, and I sort of believe that everything should be forgivable, but for some reason my visceral reaction to this is very extreme. I feel like I can more easily find sympathy for a terrorist, which probably isn’t rational, but I just feel like this is something I can’t accept. It’s so upsetting.

Please tell me of any job where a penis is inserted without consent into you and your health and life is put at risk and you are raped multiple times a day.

Any job that someone does without consent is not a job. That is literally the entire point. This is why slavery is not a job but a housemaid is.
The lack of consent (in return for financial compensation or not) is the defining factor, not whether a man gets sexual pleasure from it.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

I suppose I think everything should be forgivable because of Christian beliefs that get drummed into you, even though I’m not religious.

Forgiveness on Christian teaching is not “ Ah well that’s ok, it doesn’t matter “.

It’s about repentance, which means someone facing up to what they have done, doing whatever they can to fix and and accepting the consequences.

So for example, the consequences of having an affair might mean that your marriage is over and your wife leaves you. She might forgive you in time but that’s up to her. It doesn’t mean she needs to let you hurt her again or reconcile. These are totally different things.

The consequences of abusing a prostituted woman might be that other women refuse to date you.

Anyone can refuse to date anyone else for any reason whatsoever. It’s not equal opportunities.

Yes I agree that forgiveness is something that comes after a process, and it doesn’t erase consequences. I don’t think it’s a blank cheque. That’s not what I was trying to say.

I guess I think it’s important that there are consequences for men perpetrating this misery, as a deterrent.

@Ohnomoreno

Men like that (strip Clubs etc) aren't my type, but I'm not really that hard line about it. Back in the 90s going to strip clubs was normal, and plenty of normal blokes went along. As my DH said though, only the creepy pervs actually wanted a lap dance. In countries like Germany prostitiution is completely legal and they have mandatory health checks, pay taxes etc. That changes it a bit for me.

The German system seems better on the face of it, but I read an article linked on another thread (can't seem to find the link, sorry, but I think it was from the Observer or something similar) about the reality of it. It talked about clubs where men could pay an entry fee then have as much use of the women as they liked, women who were required to be totally naked at all times and women who knew they would lose their job if they said no to anything or anyone. It also included comments from women and girls living nearby who had been groped and harrassed by the men visiting these clubs- some so frequently that they daren't go outside in the evenings.

OP- I agree entirely with your stance on this. I did once go out with someone who went to strip clubs etc. He worked in sales and claimed it was expected when entertaining clients. I felt uncomfortable about it but was persuaded that I was a prude. I should have seen it for the red flag that it was.

@Springfern

Agree, 100percent. I would extend that to men who watch porn

Ha, good luck finding one that hasn’t!

@Flowers24

But they are choosing to do the job , they could do something else? Rape is a forced attack

What a load of nonsense you are writing. Things like domestic abuse where rape could be common, the women comply in dear if their lives, the abuser demands sex the victim has no choice its either that or broken ribs or risk to themselves or their children . Rape isn't always forced and sex isn't always consensual!

Selfishly, but somewhat it's really needed, I might start my own thread on this as per my message below. To widen it out into... has anyone "lived with" this knowledge, and it not turned out ultimately to be a massive stonking frantically waving red flag....

In theory, it's an absolute line in the sand for me. But what about in practice, as a historical fact (in a different environment and with different surroundings and people, pre self evolution) that's not been repeated? Any takers?

@IdblowJonSnow

Yanbu OP, however I do find the phrase 'used a prostitute' fairly offensive also. Sex worker is the accepted term.

"Sex worker" and "prostitute" are not inter-changeable terms. All prostitutes are sex workers, not all sex workers are prostitutes.

Think of it as akin to racial terminology. All black people are BAMEs, not all BAMEs are black.

You might find "used a prostitute" offensive but (unless you are a prostitute yourself) have no right to determine what language those involved in the trade use to define themselves. I'd rather listen to The English Collective of Prostitutes who have some experience in these matters than A.N. Otherrandomperson.

Why do people keep using Germany as an example and not (gasp) Amsterdam?

@Awalkintime
Many are trafficked and we do not know which ones

@Mittens030869
But a great many have been trafficked and are not there willingly!

Do you have anything to back up these assertions?

I remember the Guardian reporting a number of years ago about a large police operation to identify trafficked women - and they couldn't find any:-

Inquiry fails to find single trafficker who forced anybody into prostitution

More recently, this report from the Modern Slavery and Exploitation Helpline annual assessment:-

www.modernslaveryhelpline.org/uploads/20210407114600907.pdf

found that there were 481 potential victims identified to them in 2020 as a result of sexual exploitation, ie people who may be victims of trafficking.

I have no idea how many escorts there are in the UK. So I just did a quick google search and found one website for London where there were over 14,000 escorts advertising - and that's just London so who knows how many there are nationwide and advertising on other sites.

So, does trafficking happen? Of course it does and every trafficker that ends up in prison deserves everything they get.

But is it the case that "many" women working as prostitutes are "trafficked"? I really don't know, but I haven't seen evidence to back up that assertion.

It does mainly seem to be men who struggle to sustain relationships for whatever reason.
So they are more likely to go to far flung places to either start a relationship with someone much younger and can't speak their language.
Or go with prostitutes.

@Annoymoususer

If the punter stiffs the prostitute ie not paying her then it can amount to rape.

That isn't the case in the UK. There was a very recent judgment in the Court of Appeal that was talking about what does and does not negate consent and specifically said at para 34:-

Neither is the consent of a sex worker vitiated if the client never intends to pay.

R v Lawrance (2020) EWCA Crim 971

Most prostitutes don't want to do it, but only doing it in exchange for the money, when that punter doesn't pay and takes the goods, its violating the person as they entered into a verbal contract they backtracked on.

I totally agree with you that it is absolutely reprehensible for a man (or anyone) to do that.

I think that this is one of the problems with the current laws that deter women from working together that leave women working on their own and so open to more threats and abusive behaviour from their customers than they would be working together.

@Witchcraftandhokum

I was a dancer in a strip club, I went to work and got paid for my time, just like any other job. I had friends who were escorts, same thing. A job we chose to do.

I was a stripper in a strip club for the best part of ten years.

Being a stripper is absolutely not like any other job.

A lap dance is not the same as sex.

I danced for many hundreds of men who were gross and who, if they hadn't been paying me, I would have actively avoided. Some made my skin crawl. And yet I smiled, and laughed and made them think it was a pleasure to be in their company.

I have also been raped by a man (who I thought was a friend) who paid me afterwards. Assuming that because I was a stripper, and because he hadn't beaten me, and because he paid afterwards that it did not make him a rapist. He even said "I've paid you and its on my CCTV so you can't go to the police".

[quote nickymanchester]@Awalkintime
Many are trafficked and we do not know which ones

@Mittens030869
But a great many have been trafficked and are not there willingly!

Do you have anything to back up these assertions?

I remember the Guardian reporting a number of years ago about a large police operation to identify trafficked women - and they couldn't find any:-

Inquiry fails to find single trafficker who forced anybody into prostitution

More recently, this report from the Modern Slavery and Exploitation Helpline annual assessment:-

www.modernslaveryhelpline.org/uploads/20210407114600907.pdf

found that there were 481 potential victims identified to them in 2020 as a result of sexual exploitation, ie people who may be victims of trafficking.

I have no idea how many escorts there are in the UK. So I just did a quick google search and found one website for London where there were over 14,000 escorts advertising - and that's just London so who knows how many there are nationwide and advertising on other sites.

So, does trafficking happen? Of course it does and every trafficker that ends up in prison deserves everything they get.

But is it the case that "many" women working as prostitutes are "trafficked"? I really don't know, but I haven't seen evidence to back up that assertion.[/quote]
People seem to have this impression that prostitution can never be a choice.
And that every client is either old, ugly or someone you’d never want to sleep with under other circumstances.

I knew however several girls at uni who did it .£50 - £100 an hour for a couple of hours work paid for makeup and holidays abroad. Some had ‘sugar daddies’ who took them out to dinner, bought them expensive things.

The men weren’t all what you’d expect. Mostly average looking. Nothing particularly off putting about them.

Just like how some people can have one night stands and others would never even contemplate sleeping with anyone other than a monogamous partner - people have different levels of tolerance to sex with strangers.
The fact that all this is unregulated and hush hush and nobody talks about it is what makes it so dangerous - but prostitution here is different from third world countries.

Also see Amsterdam - fixed place for people to ply their trade, every cubicle has a button which when pressed ensures police presence in a matter of minutes, all girls interviewed before they’re allowed a place, regular health checks and check-ins with the authorities.

There may not be much trafficking in the UK (though there will be other forms of exploitation), but I do know that it happens in Amsterdam! You should read this autobiography of a victim, Slave Girl by Sarah Forsyth.

Maybe the laws have tightened up since then, but I doubt that, as it was clear from those stories that dangerous gangs were involved and the police were pretty powerless.

I’m not saying that all the girls are trafficked, obviously. But blokes going away on stag weekends won’t know which ones are.

Sarah was conned by an advert for crèche workers in Amsterdam. It’s terrifying.

I have heard of others, through the work I’m involved in, but that’s mainly women from Central Asia or Eastern Europe, not from the UK.

@Mittens030869 that is petrifying. Many women who've answered ads in Moldova have had the same fate.

This is why paying for sex should never, ever be legalised until we can get to a point where crimes against women fall exponentially. If you create grey areas then victims slip through the net

The man that arrive in Amsterdam for a 'go' in the red light district... partners at home. The stag weekends where men will pay for sex.

Any man like that is not worthy of a decent woman.

men not man! ....... the women behind the doors are there because the demand from men is there - those on holiday/stag weekends/breaks with the lads

Me neither, it's pretty gross

Also see Amsterdam - fixed place for people to ply their trade, every cubicle has a button which when pressed ensures police presence in a matter of minutes, all girls interviewed before they’re allowed a place, regular health checks and check-ins with the authorities

Amsterdam is a fucking cesspit where it’s estimated that up to 60% of the women working there have been trafficked. I don’t know why anyone thinks it s a good example of a system that works. Ignorance?

I moved into a house in London seven years ago. Tenanted, with a guy who worked in a university (he said), a young music grad and the landlady who used the spare room occasionally. Soon it became clear this guy had lots of mental health problems. I wish I had seen this sooner but eventually his anger and moods took over the whole house and the others moved out. He stopped working and used to visit Thailand on his own. He would come back in a good mood but his attitude to rose of us in the house really started to change. Clearly, he had become used to treating women a certain way and his boundaries had altered and when he returned here, he treated the house as though it was his domain and he was in charge. Eventually he met someone on a trip and a month later, married her (despite the lack of language skills). He was the type of person who when speaking to someone who didn’t speak English would just repeat the English words in a louder voice, speaking slowly in a sing song accent😕

The point I am trying to get at is that this man was grossly entitled and was only happy once his sense of entitlement was satisfied. And his behaviour has had a horrible effect on those who had to e Petrie ve it. He would get into these rages and shout for hours at my housemate. The landlady did nothing. Absolutely nothing. I should have left sooner and regret staying (and wrote on here about the two subsequent housemates). If you devalue one woman, you devalue everyone. There is always a cost and perhaps you could argue that the Thai woman he married is now able to have a better life but it was at the expense of our well-being. It’s reductive thinking.

Just like how some people can have one night stands and others would never even contemplate sleeping with anyone other than a monogamous partner - people have different levels of tolerance to sex with strangers.

And end up being 'reviewed' on Punternet or similar as if they were a fucking kitchen appliance.

www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/opinion/sunday/companies-online-rape-videos.html

justicedefensefund.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d112076c885fe61dc7543000d&id=67f9ab4c65&e=f029b8a813

The Dutch authorities are cracking down on sex tourism and the problem with the trafficking of sex workers in Amsterdam and have been for the last few years. I thought this was pretty well known.

If you want an example of local authority toleration towards prostitution, you should probably look at Edinburgh. There have been licensed saunas (brothels) there for years, there have been various attempts at "tolerance zones" for street based prostitutes (none particularly successful as they created a problem whereby punters were targeting any women walking there) and there have been a lot of lap dancing club licenses issued (possibly less now).