I would never want to be with a man who had used a prostitute

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

I hope I haven’t unwittingly ever been. When I know some friends of friends who have on stag dos etc. I find it really hard to reconcile with the fact that they then have girlfriends, wives, children. I can forgive people a lot of things, and I sort of believe that everything should be forgivable, but for some reason my visceral reaction to this is very extreme. I feel like I can more easily find sympathy for a terrorist, which probably isn’t rational, but I just feel like this is something I can’t accept. It’s so upsetting.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

But how often is paid sex ever truly consensual. There is an inescapable power imbalance that makes this seem unlikely.

Read Dr Brooke Magnati’s book : Belle de Jour.

DeadlyMedally

There is no comparison. You call me a troll to put me down because your arguments have been rubbished. Please tell me of any job where a penis is inserted without consent into you and your health and life is put at risk and you are raped multiple times a day. My boss doesn't do that to me. In some jobs their boss does sexually assault them and it is a crime - even with the wage. The wage does not let the boss rape them.

Did you even read the reflection of the poster before who said she hated it, disassociated from it? That is not consent.

Compensation is given when a crime has been committed you are right - and this too is a crime - it is paid rape. So do you think my rapist just owes me a tenner and then that's fine?

You're trying to justify rape which is my books is abhorrent.

@Pyewackect Belle de Jour often gets quoted on these kind of posts as if someone smart and articulate who made a choice and then wrote a good book about it is representative of a significant percentage of prostitutes in the UK.

The reality is for every one Belle de Jour I'd give you thousands of either trafficked or drug-coerced women who have no choice or alternative path to fall back on.

The shiny fascinating Belle narrative is great as it's a loud voice on the table. It is however one voice - there are thousands of voiceless people whose realities are all eerily familiar to each other yet silent to us.

@TemporaryNCapril21

I've name changed for obvious reasons but I just wanted to say thank you to the many women here who take a hard line against the exploitation of sex workers.

I am an ex prostitute, unfortunately. I was introduced to 'the game' when I was very young, I was in an abusive relationship as are alot of the women in my (then) position. I seldom sit and reflect back to when it started as it's too painful. I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to post anything at all.

PP is absolutely spot on about the sex workers need to disassociate during the act. I genuinely don't believe a single one of us ever enjoys sleeping with those men. I didn't. Not once. Never.

They made my skin crawl and the self proclaimed 'nice guys' we're the worst ones of them all.

I actually preferred the stony faced and cold clients who barely spoke to me over the ones who tried to 'befriend' me and pretended to give a shit about me as a person whilst using my body for money.

I don't care what their reasoning was for visiting me, they shouldn't have. Nobody is entitled to sex nor is it a need or necessity.

Many of my clients were forgettable but the ones who left me with the most trauma were the 'nice guys' I touched on above.

I have been stalked by three separate clients, all whom started off as wanting to be my friend because they cared so much about me. Little did they know or care that their intrusion and nosyness was getting me beaten at home. These were seemingly normal blokes, with normal jobs, you wouldn't pick them out of a crowd. Deluded, dangerous idiots who convinced themselves I enjoyed my 'job' and enjoyed having sex with them.

I was one of the lucky ones who got out without being killed or seriously injured by a client, but the anecdotes shared with me by other sex workers were enough to make my blood run cold. It's an extremely dangerous environment to be in and you attract all the dregs of society with their taboo perversions and total lack of respect for women.

It won't come as a surprise to many of you to hear that I have a total aversion to sex now, despite having moved on from that way of life and settled down with my own family.

If by any chance any men are reading this, do not buy sex. Please. We don't like you, we don't enjoy having sex with you and the vast majority of us are not doing it because we want to or have other viable choices.

@Pyewackect please read this lovely person's post.

I would wager for every Belle de Jour fable there are 100,000 stories more akin to this. They just don't get heard unless posts like these appear, or documentaries etc.

Women are not for sale.

Anyone who thinks otherwise does not care about women.

@BrumBoo

I find it repugnant. I have a family member who goes on holidays to the Far East, and as a single, middle aged man we all know why. I won't tell my kids where 'Uncle Mark' has gone on holiday, as if they innocently repeat it to anyone it's also quite easy to figure out. It's bloody shameful for all of us, and no he's not had a proper girlfriend for a few years now. I imagine one slip of the tongue about foreign holidays would have them running a mile to the closest shower/GUM clinic.

I've told my husband that if he ever starts doing similar if we split up, I'd have a very difficult time allowing contact with the children. Extreme I know, but if a man is willing to treat a woman like a paid fuck-hole then his moral standards is at zero.

Why do people think it’s ok to use such unbelievably demeaning and misogynistic language when talking about sex workers? Why would you ever think it was ok to describe someone this way?

You can disagree profoundly with men paying for sex without being so utterly dehumanising about sex workers. You could at least try and remember that these are real women whose feelings matter. And you could try and bear in mind that the way we talk about sex workers directly impacts the way others perceive them and, as a result, on their safety and well-being (studies have shown that using demeaning terms for sex workers leads people and the media to be more dismissive of crimes committed against them, because the crimes are seen as inevitable and / or deserved).

@RobertaSloth don't twist my post. I didn't refer yo sex workers as anything, I said women. As they are. Not sex workers. It's not an actual job whatever some people try and convince themselves of, it's a form of legal abuse.

Why do people think it’s ok to use such unbelievably demeaning and misogynistic language when talking about sex workers? Why would you ever think it was ok to describe someone this way?

BrumBoo was so obviously talking about how men who pay for sex workers view them. Because it's the truth isn't it - to the 'clients' (rapists) the women are a hole to stick their penis in, she doesn't want it and he knows it but to him his dick is more important than her feelings

Or maybe he doesn't even consider if she wants it because to him she's just a body part and not a human

[quote BrumBoo]@RobertaSloth don't twist my post. I didn't refer yo sex workers as anything, I said women. As they are. Not sex workers. It's not an actual job whatever some people try and convince themselves of, it's a form of legal abuse.[/quote]
You literally used the phrase ‘paid fuck hole’. Even if you’re only putting those words in the mouth of someone else, it’s still unbelievable derogatory. You are the person who used those words, and how do you think it would feel to read them as a sex worker? Pretty shitty, right?

I don’t think you get a free pass to say such a revoltingly derogatory phrase just because you’re imagining it’s actually someone else saying it.

And I am not pro sex work or anything like that. I think it’s fine for the OP to have this as a red line, I would too. I’m not here defending anyone who pays for sex. But I can’t believe you’d think it ok to call a woman that and then try to excuse it on the basis that you’re imagining it’s actually said by someone else.

@RobertaSloth they were blatantly used to illustrate how men see sex workers, not BrunBoo's actual feelings and it's absolutely relevant to use this language to remind us how dehumanised sex workers are viewed by clients. Get of your high horse, you're attacking the wrong person

@RobertaSloth but in order to address the problem, we have to face the fact that that is how men see these women. There isn't really any point in pussyfooting around the issue, pretending that men actually see these women as humans with feelings, they see them as the PP described - let's name it. It's clear she isn't referring to them that way herself.

Part of the problem around the sex industry is that discussion around it is so sanitised.

Even if you’re only putting those words in the mouth of someone else, it’s still unbelievable derogatory.

You have so completely missed the point of what I said that you really are not worth engaging with. Evidently you have decided that what I've said is whatever that has come to your mind rather what I actually meant. That's not my problem.

No, I’m not. Using dehumanising language about sex workers impacts on their safety. Even if you’re pretending to be someone else who holds those opinions, rather than holding them yourself. It’s why people care less about women who are murdered if the headlines about them describe them as prostitutes. If the effect occurs even with a comparatively benign word like ‘prostitute’ can you imagine how much worse it is with something like ‘fuck hole’?

I know this poster isn’t saying ‘I view sex workers as paid fuck holes’. But what she is saying is ‘in order to express my disgust about men who pay for sex, I’m happy to use demeaning and perjorative language about sex workers, without regard to how harmful it might be to them to read that sort of description’. I don’t think that gets a free pass, personally.

[quote Mugginyouleftrightandcentre]@RobertaSloth but in order to address the problem, we have to face the fact that that is how men see these women. There isn't really any point in pussyfooting around the issue, pretending that men actually see these women as humans with feelings, they see them as the PP described - let's name it. It's clear she isn't referring to them that way herself.

Part of the problem around the sex industry is that discussion around it is so sanitised.[/quote]
This!!

Language is so important and if we incorrectly associate humanising words with "Johns" (men who pay for sex) it would be doing a huge disservice to sex workers. It's so clear BrumBoo views sex workers as victims and not "fuck holes" and I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or genuinely don't get why she used that term.

No, I’m not. Using dehumanising language about sex workers impacts on their safety.

You think if women stop pointing out how sex workers are viewed by Johns that suddenly men (you know, the people who pose an actual danger to sex workers) will suddenly start respecting them? Lol.

I don’t think that gets a free pass, personally.

It's not about a 'free pass' it's about reminding us of how sex workers are viewed by those that put them in danger.

But hey why blame men when you can blame women right

[quote Mugginyouleftrightandcentre]@RobertaSloth but in order to address the problem, we have to face the fact that that is how men see these women. There isn't really any point in pussyfooting around the issue, pretending that men actually see these women as humans with feelings, they see them as the PP described - let's name it. It's clear she isn't referring to them that way herself.

Part of the problem around the sex industry is that discussion around it is so sanitised.[/quote]
What you’re essentially saying is ‘in order to understand how demeaning sex work is we have to ourselves be demeaning’.

No.

You don’t need to use these terms yourself, and further contribute to the dehumanisation of sex workers. Just like it’s not ok for white people to say racist terms when discussing racism against black people, and not ok for men to say misogynistic slurs when talking about sexism. Any use of these terms causes harm, even if you’re not yourself directing them at someone.

I wonder what the difference is to having affairs to a prostitute or people who use tinder and have frequent free sex
Often by married men a huge percentage too.
Yes I know they aren't paid but it's all the same to me if not less safe.
I can say the majority of women would not know if a partner was seeing a prostitute
But hey on mn a married woman who can't even have male friendships nor the husband with women because it is likely to be sexual. It is 2021 not 1950

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

No, I’m not. Using dehumanising language about sex workers impacts on their safety.

You think if women stop pointing out how sex workers are viewed by Johns that suddenly men (you know, the people who pose an actual danger to sex workers) will suddenly start respecting them? Lol.

No. I’m saying that studies have shown that normal, decent people who see themselves as the good ones care less about things like the murder or women when they are identified using terms like ‘prostitute’, ‘hooker’, etc.

There are real world consequences for this. The police try less hard to solve crimes against sex workers. Sex workers are less likely to be listened to about what they need to feel safe. Sex workers are less likely to trust authorities, which can leave them vulnerable to crime and also contributes to sex trafficking.

The real danger to sex workers are the men who hurt them, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t also challenge the way in which good people inadvertently contribute to that danger and hurt.

There’s a documentary on Netflix called The Ripper in which this phenomenon is very evident, if you’re interested. I personally found it a very hard watch though, so please be aware that it’s very triggering for sex work, rape, murder, and institutional misogyny.

This thread is so focused on men's behaviour. Many woman watch shows like the Chippendales/Magic Mike. Many woman watch and enjoy pornography. Enough woman use male prostitutes/escorts for there to be an industry.

Not saying sex industry is good/bad, but we must accept that customers aren't all male.

@cupoftea2021

I wonder what the difference is to having affairs to a prostitute or people who use tinder and have frequent free sex Often by married men a huge percentage too. Yes I know they aren't paid but it's all the same to me if not less safe. I can say the majority of women would not know if a partner was seeing a prostitute But hey on mn a married woman who can't even have male friendships nor the husband with women because it is likely to be sexual. It is 2021 not 1950

How is having consensual sex due to responding to profiles on a dating platform, the same as being forced (often through trafficking or other organised crime) to give up ones body multiple times on a daily basis, for money, to strangers?

I mean can someone explain this to me because this is blowing my mind a bit

@RobertaSloth people using the term prostitute is NOT the reason sex workers are mistreated.

Take a look down thread at the post by an ex sex worker to find out how the 'nice' guys who used the 'nice' language made her feel.