Is my friend neglecting her children?

[hapilyanon]

I'll try to avoid useless information.

I have a friend who is expecting her forth child but the children she already has are not properly taken care of. They are all about a year or so apart bar the first child.

She dumps at least one of her 3 children at a friend's house or her parents house at all times, she nearly never has all her children at once.
They are allowed to eat whatever they want, usually fast food every night, they have constant reoccurring lice, she will treat them once or twice every few months but they still always end up with lice - I suppose it could be their friends but at one point you could see them crawling all over, even on the BABIES head!

They are filthy by mid day as the house is pretty dirty and she never wipes them down.
They don't brush their teeth or hair usually and I can see black cavities in the children's teeth.

They are not taught manners or patience. My friend regularly screams and her children and calls them names.

The oldest misses school at least a few days every month because her mother just can't be bothered taking her to school.

Is this neglect worthy of calling some kind of child services about? The children are mostly healthy, clothed and fed so I feel as I might be over reacting but it just feels wrong, especially seeing as she is careless enough to be having another.
I wish there was a step in between child services but what's your opinions?

I believe you can have a 'no names' conversation with SS in the first instance. Write down your observations and try and keep opinions or emotive language out of it.

It is quite sad isn’t it because if this mum was just offered a free weekly cleaner/help with washing and maybe some regular babysitting help she would probably be OK. In the olden days, neighbours would have rallied around to do this for a person struggling.

I agree this would work for some families but IME it depends whether it’s a case of struggling but wanting to do better, or just not caring/bothering. The former would do well with support whether from actual services or community rallying round, the latter would likely not engage with services anyway

You can report to SS anonymously online anyway

@forinborin please stop perpetuating the myth that social services are there to remove children from their birth families . It's posts like this which make people second guess whether they should raise concerns or not. Foster care is seen as a last resort, unless it's very short term , and the preference is always for a child to be cared for within their extended family .

There are levels of support which can happen arising from a social services referral . Often this starts with support from a Family Support worker or signposting to similar voluntary organisation. Social workers can also offer support under a child in need plan if it's felt that the level of concern doesn't meet safeguarding threshold .

I would be surprised that the school age child isn't already being monitored by school pastoral team but I know this can vary school to school .

The fact that the mum doesn't have all her children with her at one time isn't a concern though . Social workers encourage support through friends and family if someone is struggling .

The unmet health needs would be a concern, as would shouting and swearing at the children if this was the norm .

I am on of 3 and we were very close in age. I was the eldest and got loads of support from neighbours, school and family. My mother had PND and struggled a lot. Luckily family came to clean, took us to dentists and I stayed over at neighbours house quite frequently. My parents were well off and it was embarrassing for my mother to admit she struggled. Luckily, we had a lovely community to support her. Also through her church. When we grew up she did the same for other struggling mothers. So no, it is not non sense about community/support/the “olden days”. I have actually lived it. My grandmother grew up in a Communist Soviet country and had the same support. These children might be properly neglected but it could just be that the mum needs lots of practical help. Sad that so many people in this country rely on the nanny state to sort them out.

I don't think it is considered neglect by SS. It's low level neglect she has support friends she has her DM, her DC are fed and dressed albeit badly, they've a roof over their head her parenting isn't great she's doing it.
It's normal for many families.
If the philpotts were allowed to keep their DC with their situation before the fire SS bar is high or there's far worsen DC who need saving.

Please ignore some of the (well meaning? ) responses from people who are telling you to offer support yourself. The level of neglect you have described really needs to be assessed fully and this is what Children's Services is meant for. As a PP has said, this situation may be worse than it looks from the outside and is likely to get worse once mum has an infant to look after as well. This family really needs support now to help prevent this from escalating. Mum needs support to learn ways to manage the situation more effectively herself, not someone to step in and look after her children for her.

As has been said, Children's Services offer varying level of support to families. They do not just routinely march in and remove children. Most CS DO offer a lower level of voluntary early intervention services. A referral will prompt them to assess what would be most appropriate in this case. They will talk to school, other professionals involved, etc.

Please don't assume school have noticed
or that this will be picked up by the HV. Many serious cases of child neglect have gone ignored because everyone assumed someone else would take action. If you have concerns, you really should refer straight to CS. If they don't feel the children are at risk they will close the case, if they do the family will receive support. There is no reason not to contact them.

So no, it is not non sense about community/support/the “olden days”

It’s nonsense that it only happened in the “olden days” (30/40 years ago?)and it’s nonsense that it always happened in the “olden days” because there absolutely will have been children in your town while you were growing up that were being neglected and no neighbours or family rallying round to help.

but IME it depends whether it’s a case of struggling but wanting to do better, or just not caring/bothering.
This is true.
I'd happily help anyone struggling but some people just can't be bothered they'll have help but not care or appreciate it.

Please don't make rude assumptions, I haven't known her for more than a year, obviously I don't live with her so it has taken me time to realise the true extent.
I have just come here for advice, I'm still young and don't want to be sticking my nose in places it doesn't belong, especially other people's family matters.

Our neighbours are all very supportive when in need nothing olden days about it.

I haven't known her for very long so really I couldn't tell a difference sadly. But she has had reduced work hours from her already very little hours... so really she should have the time. She does deal with other medical issues tho.

Surely if the kids are missing school, have lice, are dirty, gave cavities etc the school would be picking this up? They wouldn't sit back and do nothing so you'd expect SS to be involved already?

Yes, it’s neglect. I don’t think it’s quite grounds for SS to remove them but they would certainly try to help her out. I’m surprised the school hasn’t flagged it up if the child is missing so much school.

She does seem to need help but she's not assisting herself with all her careless pregnancies, it's so frustrating to see people putting themselves in such bad places.
I could help out a little but I am worried about involving myself too much.

Thank you very much for this reply with such good info, I will be mulling over the choices. I realise the children need some help but SS just seems so extreme, I wouldn't want to know I was the one to break a family up.

Well, I struggle to see how the children can simultaneously have a full mouth of fillings and having never been seen by a dentist in their lives, which is what various posters stated. And again, the OP has a level of daily insight into this family's life that I cannot claim to have with my closest and dearest friends (ie what they have for dinner every day). I would personally offer support to someone whose life seems to be so entwined with my own before reporting them to authorities and hope that some faceless official will come and provide "parenting classes" or clean their house. Because, presumably, I care for these children deeply and want them to live better - not just feel good myself for reporting someone and bringing justice to the situation.

@hapilyanon

She does seem to need help but she's not assisting herself with all her careless pregnancies, it's so frustrating to see people putting themselves in such bad places. I could help out a little but I am worried about involving myself too much.

You're very judgmental which makes me question whether what you're suggesting is going on isn't exaggerated a little. I can't see how this would escape the schools notice. What are the medical issues?

FWIW if what you're saying is reflective of the situation, I would report.

She has some medical conditions so I feel like she uses that as an excuse, not sure though.

I would report. There will be a number to call for your local children's services on your local authority website. I've called ours before when concerned about a neighbour, turns out the child was known to them and I felt much better knowing that I'd acted on concerns and hopefully supported the family getting some help. I'd imagine that social services have already been contacted by the school, but it maybe the school concern alone didn't trigger investigation or that the school haven't reported, always best to take action rather than assume someone else has.

I always think with safeguarding (I'm a teacher so have been involved in a few cases that way) what is the worst case scenario? How would you feel if the kids did come to harm and you hadn't acted?

I love the comments about the olden days. In the olden days abuse was brushed under the carpets and not talked about.
I'm glad you have noticed there is a problem and something needs to be done about it. She needs help looking after the children she already has and I hope after this baby she doesn't have anymore!

@wonderstuff

I would report. There will be a number to call for your local children's services on your local authority website. I've called ours before when concerned about a neighbour, turns out the child was known to them and I felt much better knowing that I'd acted on concerns and hopefully supported the family getting some help. I'd imagine that social services have already been contacted by the school, but it maybe the school concern alone didn't trigger investigation or that the school haven't reported, always best to take action rather than assume someone else has.

I always think with safeguarding (I'm a teacher so have been involved in a few cases that way) what is the worst case scenario? How would you feel if the kids did come to harm and you hadn't acted?

If all of the things the OP has said are true, why wouldn't the school have reported? Just the absences should be enough? (Asking as I don't know how schools treat situations like this).

@hapilyanon

She has some medical conditions so I feel like she uses that as an excuse, not sure though.

Not sure but still judging her.

I say "friend" as I do not want to reveal either of our identities, but seeing as your so suspicious, she is my boyfriends sister so yes, I have all the insight I need.

@hapilyanon

I say "friend" as I do not want to reveal either of our identities, but seeing as your so suspicious, she is my boyfriends sister so yes, I have all the insight I need.

Why isn't your boyfriend doing anything? Shouldn't you be reporting him?!