To think calling in sick for no sleep is a good enough reason?

[Rachelinaa]

I work in an office that's been open through most of lockdown due to admin we do being essential.
Recently one of my workmates has been calling in sick a lot because he hasn't been sleeping well as he's got a baby at home that won't sleep. I was shocked to hear other people at work saying they thought it was a ridiculous reason not to come to work and we've all had to come to work tired. But I thought they'd be able to see the difference between being tired and not sleeping at all. His baby has colic and the mum also works.
I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep. I wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this was? I personally don't want someone driving to work if they're too tired to focus and I can't think that the boss would want someone in more likely to make mistakes.

I think this is not a workmate - this is the OP's husband and you are both taking the piss.

Isn't NHS maternity reasonably fair compared with SMP (assume she qualifies). If they've made a conscious choice to both be back at work when the child is younger than 'normal' then having sleep disturbances is part and parcel of that, surely? There's a reason SMP is paid til 9 months. Not that it guarantees baby is sleeping through (I went back at 9 months, she definitely wasn't!) But it gives you a fighting chance of having a few hours between wake-ups.
I've made some inferences there but what I'm saying is that whatever work/child decisions have been made they all have upsides and downsides and you can't expect other people to be impacted by the downsides you've selected to accept.

@Hardbackwriter I've worked with him for several years. People talk at work and tell each other things.
And I know it's temporary but many couples struggle at the beginning with a baby, not spending time together isn't always a solution that fits everyone's relationship. My DH and I were fine nodding to one another on the way by as one got up and the other went to bed, but it's not for everyone and we shouldn't expect it to be.

I don't understand why both parents are back at work when the baby is so young - colic lasts from 6-12 weeks old doesn't it? - The mother works for the NHS surely she should be entitled to full enhanced maternity pay - this all seems a bit odd.

Both my DC have woken every hour until 2 and then woken 3-4 times a night until 3. I had to get on with it. Sugar is your friend.

I think it's a little unfair on those without children. I wouldn't dream of calling in sick due to tiredness and I'd be on edge all day, worrying about having to go back to work and explain myself! So I probably wouldn't sleep anyway!

I remember a time I called in sick with a hangover. Obvs I didn't tell work the real reason... But I was right as rain by lunchtime and could easily have gone in and done my 8 hours, just later in the day. Similar with the OPs post... Get some kip and do your shift later on. I truly wish the workplace was more flexible like that.

I would have thought colic would be over by the time the mother went back to work.

This is why I did a routine with mine (back when DD was 5 months & DS 6 months) so I would be able to get enough sleep to function at work. It's always criticised on MN.

I don't think it's a valid reason - they need to sort out the baby's sleep. Hire a sleep consultant (who will probably charge a few hundred quid and tell them to try a routine 🤷🏻‍♀️)

Having had a child who turned out to just not need much sleep and never slept longer than two hours in his first two years, I have a lot of sympathy. However, work still expected me to do 12+ hour shifts including driving at 90+mph to keep people alive so I’m also quite used to employers not having the same level of sympathy.

He’d probably do better to call in with how he actually feels eg lack of sleep can make you feel sick and exhausted, rather than saying his baby isn’t sleeping.

If I phoned in sick everytime I never got a lot of sleep I would have been off sick 50% of the time for the first couple of years after ds was born and 50% of the time now (menopause and insomnia).

The disruption of regular off sick due to lack of sleep won't be tolerated by most employers for long.

The couple have the option to need to sleep in shifts until they resolve the babys sleeping, even if it means one going to bed very very early. I often went to bed midweek before 8pm when ds was little to catch up on sleep.

I don't really have a problem with people assuming I'm the wife of the man in question since I'm clearly saying I believe it's fine and had zero shame doing it myself when my DS was small, but it seems most Mumsnet posts turn into this, where people want it to be more personal so their insults and attacks hopefully bruise more.
If it was about me, I'd have posted it was about me and my husband. But why would it make a difference eitherway? Why do people want it to be about me just so they think their opinion can sting more to say you think it's not a valid reason? Also don't you all talk to people you work with? We sit in an office for 8 hours a day doing admin, if we didn't talk we'd drive ourselves mad.

The thing is, OP, the employer has a duty of care to their employees, yes - allowing them time off sick and not discriminating. But they also have a duty to their other employees to operate a fair, equitable system - not putting others under pressure for a less than reliable colleague.

The odd day off to catch up on sleep because of a non-sleeping baby - fine.

But a pattern of this - not so good, because if the baby is as young as you say this could persist for years.

As an employer I’d also be concerned about attitude towards how they view their role at work as secondary to their personal life. It’s secondary for al of us - work to live is better than live to work! - but you can’t expect an employer to prioritise your ‘I don’t see my partner if we take shifts with the baby’ as anything other than an irrelevant reason to their business concerns.

In a situation like this, as others have said, there’s asking to flex hours, reduce hours temporarily, spell of parental leave etc that should be considered if the situation is so severe that both parents are taking time off work (‘a lot’, you said). Sick leave persistently in this situation isn’t appropriate.

I think it depends. A poor nights sleep for most people is just a suck it up situation, so with no underlying conditions I'dsay it's unreasonable.

It depends on how it affects you though.
Because of my lupus, sustained lack of sleep will bring on lack of balance, coordination and a huge drop in cognitive ability. I wouldn't drive that's for sure.

I think that's probably relatively rare though, and I go to work when I'm 'normal tired' as most of us have to.

I've done it before when my insomnia was awful. I have to drive on the motorway to get get work and wouldn't feel safe driving on no sleep. Also hard to perform well. Not sure why so many have voted YABU really!

I think it's a little unfair on those without children

Why? I'm not saying having children is the only reason to call in sick for tiredness. I think being too tired for work is a legitimate reason not to go in if you're too tired to function properly. If someone without children was up all night with anxiety or a sleep disorder or other things then I'd say that's good enough reason too if it's becoming a daily issue.

@WeAllHaveWings exactly, my sleep hasn’t been great for the past 6 years but l can’t phone in sick all the time.

The parents know their baby doesn't sleep well so they should be taking turns and getting enough sleep - they are not working long hours. If they don't want to do this they should be taking parental unpaid leave.

I agree. I'm in the United States, and we get called out on our Health Care System all the time (as we should). But at least we have reasonable Sick Time. @MadMadMadamMim says people would be on an absenteeism plan after 3 sick days IN A YEAR. What??? I get 10 paid Sick Days and 3 paid Personal Days a year (and I work in a school, so only working 10 months a year). I cant imagine the mentality of 3 sick days a year being a bad thing

It's a bit more complicated than that, and even in workplaces that use the Bradford Factor, most people wouldn't even be spoken to if they had a week off with flu. It's more designed to catch out those who are frequently off on a Monday because they're hungover after being out on the piss all weekend.

And most employers are pretty reasonable about longer term sickness that is verified by a doctor. I had 2 months off sick earlier this year following a bereavement, because I was simply too distraught to work (and that followed 3 weeks' compassionate leave on full pay). Later in the year, I'll be having a few more weeks off sick, because I'm having my knee replaced.

All of it will be at full pay (we get 6 months full pay and 6 months half pay per year if off sick, which mirrors what most public sector staff get).

And that's on top of 6 weeks paid holiday (legal minimum in UK is 4 weeks) plus 8 paid public holidays (possibly more in Scotland and NI).
A lot of employers in manufacturing, construction, some non-essential public services and many private companies shut down for 7-10 days over Christmas/New Year as well but continue to pay staff in full.

Ten paid sick days a year would seem really mean to many in the UK.

I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep

OP did you not take maternity leave when you had a newborn?

As an employer I’d also be concerned about attitude towards how they view their role at work as secondary to their personal life. It’s secondary for al of us - work to live is better than live to work! - but you can’t expect an employer to prioritise your ‘I don’t see my partner if we take shifts with the baby’ as anything other than an irrelevant reason to their business concerns.

Totally get that. My dad owns a business himself and I know how hard he finds it to cover shifts when people ring in sick (I spent a lot of my teen years doing unpaid work for my dad because he paid sick leave and couldn't afford to cover them and pay someone else) and I think looking at it from companies point of view is a good thing because we need to be as fair as our employees. But surely there's a middle ground? Cutting some slack for a couple having a hard time with their baby when most of us know how hard that is would surely be better than trying to get to be miserable in their home life and exhausted at work constantly? Our boss has been fine with it, no company policy to interrogate employees for sick days so long as they're not a weekly event.

@converseandjeans

I would have thought colic would be over by the time the mother went back to work.

This is why I did a routine with mine (back when DD was 5 months & DS 6 months) so I would be able to get enough sleep to function at work. It's always criticised on MN.

I don't think it's a valid reason - they need to sort out the baby's sleep. Hire a sleep consultant (who will probably charge a few hundred quid and tell them to try a routine 🤷🏻‍♀️)

No, @converseandjeans YOU are criticised for the carte blanche judgemental assumption that a lack of infant sleep is entirely down to a lack of parentally-imposed routine. Sleep is developmental - some babies are not developmentally ready to take on a routine until they’re much older. I did sleep consultant/routine/dummy/swaddling/voodoo/sobbing and screaming into a pillow with both of them virtually from birth and they still didn’t sleep longer stretches than two hours at a time until they were past 18 months. They took brilliantly to a routine (finally) from about the age of two and have been perfect since.

I also had no choice but to return to work full time before they were able to give me unbroken nights. Some babies just ‘are’, there’s nothing you can do about it and in the absence of a lottery win you’ve got to just crack on.

'Cutting them some slack' would be letting the odd day or two slide, whether it's sick leave when you know it's not really the case, or annual leave when it's too short notice or the office is too busy and time off would normally not be authorised.

When it's more than that, as your OP implies, they need to make some proper arrangements to deal with their issues.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

I went back when DS was 7 weeks old last March when DH was facing redundancy and we both panicked. He ended up on furlough and then got another job anyway but I'd already gone back.

[quote EL8888]@WeAllHaveWings exactly, my sleep hasn’t been great for the past 6 years but l can’t phone in sick all the time.[/quote]
I'd never dream of not going to work because of lack of sleep and I've been an insomniac since childhood.

I think the parents need to manage the situation so that the parent in work doesn't get disturbed (ear plugs, white noise, separate room etc) if they can't manage their job because of lack of sleep. It's not fair on other staff who continue to come to work when absolutely knackered, whether because of insomnia, pain keeping them awake or the neighbours having a rave. Using sick leave is really inappropriate imo.

I wonder if that colleague could negotiate a flexitime arrangement so he could just come in later?

I cant imagine many workplaces allowing someone to take regular or frequent time off because of sleep. Might be better to take a short career break till the child is older if cant do flexitime

No - being tired is not the same as being sick.

He should consider reducing his hours, taking some of his holiday allocation, taking some unpaid leave or asking for flexible working, but it's not fair on his colleagues that they are having to pick up the slack because he and his partner didn't think having a baby would require some fundamental changes to their lives.

Companies should have a reasonable expectation that their staff will be able to work their contracted hours. I'm all for flexible working where it's practical but it needs to be arranged in advance. How can a company or organisation plan if it never knows when members of its workforce will be turning up to work?

Sleep is vital to our health & ability to function properly but it's our responsibility to see we get it by making changes to our lives, not by calling in sick to work.