To think calling in sick for no sleep is a good enough reason?

[Rachelinaa]

I work in an office that's been open through most of lockdown due to admin we do being essential.
Recently one of my workmates has been calling in sick a lot because he hasn't been sleeping well as he's got a baby at home that won't sleep. I was shocked to hear other people at work saying they thought it was a ridiculous reason not to come to work and we've all had to come to work tired. But I thought they'd be able to see the difference between being tired and not sleeping at all. His baby has colic and the mum also works.
I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep. I wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this was? I personally don't want someone driving to work if they're too tired to focus and I can't think that the boss would want someone in more likely to make mistakes.

You cannot phone in sick for being tired. You can go in late and say you didn't sleep well and over slept, and knock back the coffee with a window open.

What is the point of having a person in who is too tired to function? What benefit does it bring to the company? Presenteeism is thought to cost double the amount of absenteeism per annum in the UK so turning up when you cannot perform isn’t helping your employer out.

I definitely agree that if it’s a constant thing taking says then he needs to work with his employer to consider flexible working opportunities, use leave and do what he can to available when possible, but I really don’t understand why, in 2021 PPs are still suggesting you have to limp into work if you can’t do the job.

(For reference, I do have a vested interested in this not because I take sick days (actually I’m a hypocrite myself and if I really need to be off I arrange TOIL) but because I work to support health and well-being in the workplace).

Nope that is poor excuse for them not having their shit together. You can't call in sick for being tired. Ridiculous.

[quote Rachelinaa]@Hardbackwriter I've worked with him for several years. People talk at work and tell each other things.
And I know it's temporary but many couples struggle at the beginning with a baby, not spending time together isn't always a solution that fits everyone's relationship. My DH and I were fine nodding to one another on the way by as one got up and the other went to bed, but it's not for everyone and we shouldn't expect it to be.[/quote]
OP, your sense of entitlement is really quite something. Your employer and your workmates are also should be be expected to be dumped on because people choose to have children they cannot cope with on a sleepless night. I feel sorry for your employer and your workmates.

@TrialOfStyle

What is the point of having a person in who is too tired to function? What benefit does it bring to the company? Presenteeism is thought to cost double the amount of absenteeism per annum in the UK so turning up when you cannot perform isn’t helping your employer out.

I definitely agree that if it’s a constant thing taking says then he needs to work with his employer to consider flexible working opportunities, use leave and do what he can to available when possible, but I really don’t understand why, in 2021 PPs are still suggesting you have to limp into work if you can’t do the job.

(For reference, I do have a vested interested in this not because I take sick days (actually I’m a hypocrite myself and if I really need to be off I arrange TOIL) but because I work to support health and well-being in the workplace).

Working flexibly, taking unpaid leave, using annual leave is a solution which may work for a few days or weeks. There is no way I could have sustained my income and employment for the length of time I was subsisting on terribly broken sleep. As a PP said, I treated this as a natural consequence of having children and didn’t transfer the burden onto my employer or workmates by changing my working patterns (I couldn’t have afforded to) or repeatedly phoning in sick. So I dragged myself in for the years it lasted. Sometimes there is literally no alternative IRL.

*Rachelinaa

@Hardbackwriter I've worked with him for several years. People talk at work and tell each other things.
And I know it's temporary but many couples struggle at the beginning with a baby, not spending time together isn't always a solution that fits everyone's relationship. My DH and I were fine nodding to one another on the way by as one got up and the other went to bed, but it's not for everyone and we shouldn't expect it to be.

OP, your sense of entitlement is really quite something. Your employer and your workmates are also should be be expected to be dumped on because people choose to have children they cannot cope with on a sleepless night. I feel sorry for your employer and your workmates.*

You think I'm entitled for sympathising with someone who has a new baby and isn't coping too well with the lack of sleep? I'm one of those workmates. And my employer has been fine with it all.
Choose to have children they cannot cope with
Are you from the 50s? These days people don't tend to expect everyone find parenting easy, we support people who struggle and we help them. Luckily the company I work for does that and doesn't have your one way traffic thoughts.

@TrialOfStyle

What is the point of having a person in who is too tired to function? What benefit does it bring to the company? Presenteeism is thought to cost double the amount of absenteeism per annum in the UK so turning up when you cannot perform isn’t helping your employer out.

I definitely agree that if it’s a constant thing taking says then he needs to work with his employer to consider flexible working opportunities, use leave and do what he can to available when possible, but I really don’t understand why, in 2021 PPs are still suggesting you have to limp into work if you can’t do the job.

(For reference, I do have a vested interested in this not because I take sick days (actually I’m a hypocrite myself and if I really need to be off I arrange TOIL) but because I work to support health and well-being in the workplace).

We are all tired. What do you define as tired though? It is a bit of a lame excuse come on!!

Having kids... is tiring let alone a newborn. There would be no staff

OP asks others if she is being unreasonable. The majority say yes. OP continues to insist she is not. All to common on many threads, unfortunately. And let’s not forget, OP is not courageous enough to own the situation and was just asking for a friend, nod nod wink wink.

I understand where everyone is coming from, I've been there myself and a lot of the time I did go to work tired, but I'm sure we've all heard the horror stories of people being so tired they've crashed or made mistakes that can be dangerous at work or fallen asleep with their baby in their arms and things that don't bare thinking about happen. And these are different days where new parents can't have people coming round and helping them when they reach breaking point or visit friends who will boost them up. They're new parents with a newborn and they're struggling. I couldn't be more grateful my boss has been as supportive as he has to him and I hope his wife's boss is just as helpful. I'm glad some people on here aren't friends with them. I thought we built people up now and helped them, calling them piss takers and ridiculous isn't what I thought people still did today. I'm glad in my day to day life I see more kindness and compassion.

Once or twice ok, regularly is not on. He needs to get it sorted- get help, sleep in shifts, get his baby on a schedule that he can cope with. I had two under two and a husband who worked away 120 nights a year, no help and i never missed work due to lack of sleep. Looking back i must have been super organised!

OP asks others if she is being unreasonable. The majority say yes. OP continues to insist she is not. All to common on many threads, unfortunately

You understand this is a forum for debate and other opinions? Not to be told something and for a person to say "of course I must be wrong, I'll change my mindset immediately"

And let’s not forget, OP is not courageous enough to own the situation and was just asking for a friend, nod nod wink wink

If you would like to assume it's me and my own husband from now on to make it easier for you to attack the situation I'm comfortable with that. I'm an anonymous person on the internet so I'm not sure why would be so determined I wouldn't "own" this situation if it was mine? But sure, you can pretend it's me. If it makes the mean girls on here feel better that they think they're attacking someone personally based on their struggles to cope with a newborn baby and working full time then I'm not really sure your opinion would count for much anyway to anyone.
But go on. Let's pretend it's my husband. Now, how does that change things? Tell me your breakthrough opinion now you feel like a member of the Scooby Doo gang because you've found an imposter!

We are all tired. What do you define as tired though? It is a bit of a lame excuse come on!!

Having kids... is tiring let alone a newborn. There would be no staff confused

There’s a vast difference between ‘a bit tired’ and ‘so tired I’m unable to perform’. As I said, for frequent occurrences the manager and employer needs to put a plan in place using flexible working, annual leave and whatever provisions are available. For occasional one-offs, there is zero point having someone too tired to function. You’re going to make the presenteeism worse because you’ll end up never recovering and continually working at a subpar level which is in the long term more detrimental to a business than allowing an employee a day off to rest.

If it’s a continuous issue, the manager has a responsible to go down the absent management process and consider capability.

A large part of what I do is to consider employees as humans first and not as a product of their work. This shouldn’t be surprising, but when employees are treated as people by their business they are more engaged and their input will be better. There will always be piss takers, but that’s for the manager to determine through patterns, productivity and attitude. I don’t know if that is or isn’t what’s going on here but this performative attitude of ‘I am worse off but still drag myself in’ does nothing positive for workers rights or overall working culture.

@BarbaraofSeville

He's not sick though. He should be using his annual leave, it's not like he's got anything else to do with it this year.

He should also be working out how to look after the baby and share sleep with his wife and I'd question whether she actually is at work, given they have a baby young enough to be keeping them up all night.

I am sure if any of our team rang in to say they needed to catch up on sleep then our manager would be telling them to take it unpaid or annual leave. Rightly or wrongly I'm sure this is the view they would take.

I don’t think it’s the employers responsibility when two adults can’t organise themselves together adequate sleep - I would have sympathy for a single parent but these parents are behaving like children - everyone else is supposed to take responsibility for their choices.

@Beautiful3

You cannot phone in sick for being tired. You can go in late and say you didn't sleep well and over slept, and knock back the coffee with a window open.

I'm one of those people who are just rubbish without sleep. On my worst days, if I were to knock back a coffee, it would reappear in projectile form very soon afterwards. Definitely depends on the person and how well they can cope.

I also wonder whether lack of sleep may only be part of the story. Some parents (dad's included) struggle hugely after the birth of a baby. If he was having trouble with his MH, he may not feel comfortable talking about that.

but I really don’t understand why, in 2021 PPs are still suggesting you have to limp into work if you can’t do the job.

I don’t think any employer or client has ever expected somebody to do a job they can’t do.

The question is how much they should be paid, and how much other employees should be expected to pick up the slack when somebody can’t do a job effectively, whether they are in work or staying at home.

I was a manager with the local council and I definitely had to ask the reason when someone phoned in sick and they had to phone and personally speak to me every day they were off (and a good manager never gossips about anyone's sickness). Anyone with a chronic health condition had their sick days treated more sympathetically but if, after all reasonable adjustments had been made, they still reached absence trigger levels then tough conversations were had with them by senior managers and HR. If your colleague worked for a publicly-accountable organisation he'd need to get his act together or he'd soon be looking for another job.

Taking the piss. Go and kip on the sofa and get a grip.

* I don’t think it’s the employers responsibility when two adults can’t organise themselves together adequate sleep - I would have sympathy for a single parent but these parents are behaving like children - everyone else is supposed to take responsibility for their choices.*

^Great post.

As others said, two adults unable to organize themselves and expecting others to pick up the slack. As for not spending some time apart as a couple to be able to take shifts with the baby, oh however will they cope. I mean it’s like not it’s their responsibility.
They must get to have the exact same routine now as before the baby, amazing sleep or paid time off from work and a unicorn as a pet. Nothing less will do, it’s cruel and de-humanising, I tell you.

I'm an insomniac and havnt called in sick due to sleep. However, with PND I once didn't sleep for 3 days straight. I could barely function. Was on maternity leave though

Insomnia is a killer - had for 2 weeks when my marriage nearly collapsed. Still went to work although I don't know how.....

Nah it's a piss take! Millions of parents manage to work perfectly fine with colicky/newborn/otherwise wakeful babies not to mention millions of carers and insomniacs too, and as a boss I'd have told them to come off it and get their backsides to work (in more polite terms obviously)

I've suffered from terrible insomnia for around 20 years, still managed to work, raise a child as a single parent and been a carer for elderly relatives at points.

He and you (if there even is a he) need to suck it up I'm afraid

I think once in a while is ok.

But with two parents and one baby, even if that baby literally never sleeps during the night, I think is a bit of a piss take. Parents can sleep in shifts. It’s not perfect, but that’s a sacrifice you have to be willing to take when you have a baby. If they’re struggling that regularly then then they should consider reducing their hours or condensing them into 4 days so they both have a Wednesday off, for example.

Are insomniacs allowed to have a sick day if they haven’t slept? Parents with older, disabled children that require round the clock care? Someone who travelled overnight back from a holiday? Single parents with young children?

I was a manager with the local council and I definitely had to ask the reason when someone phoned in sick

By law, however, the employee doesn’t actually have to tell you anything beyond ‘I’m sick.’ (Google it - ACAS is quite clear on the matter.) Just as long as you’re aware and don’t go pushing anyone to disclose as you could get into hot water if you were to do so. Most people will disclose so most of the time it’s not an issue, but employers aren’t automatically entitled to details.