To think calling in sick for no sleep is a good enough reason?

[Rachelinaa]

I work in an office that's been open through most of lockdown due to admin we do being essential.
Recently one of my workmates has been calling in sick a lot because he hasn't been sleeping well as he's got a baby at home that won't sleep. I was shocked to hear other people at work saying they thought it was a ridiculous reason not to come to work and we've all had to come to work tired. But I thought they'd be able to see the difference between being tired and not sleeping at all. His baby has colic and the mum also works.
I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep. I wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this was? I personally don't want someone driving to work if they're too tired to focus and I can't think that the boss would want someone in more likely to make mistakes.

[quote mildlymiffed]@therocinante please can I come and work for you?! I suffer from chronic insomnia, and like most have expressed on here- I just battle through most days despite feeling like absolute shit. Don't think I've ever taken a day off for it- but I should have done. I've done myself no favours working on days when I feel wretched.

I hate the idea of the Bradford scoring mechanism, in itself a tool which exacerbates my already delicate MH.

And at @Rachelinaa, agree with others- give the poor guy a break. I'd hate for others to be gossiping about my "sick days" when it's none of their business, and I was obviously already having a hard time. Given that we're midway through a pandemic I'm sure he's as aware, as everyone is, of the fact the Uk job market has been annihilated, and that he's putting himself in the spotlight by having days off. [/quote]
That's the thing - we've got employees (with chronic illness) who worked at places with the Bradford scale previously and they are much more likely to struggle in when they're ill, much more likely to be scared of asking for help or time off... In appraisals they're much more likely to score themselves badly for performance as a result of their time off taken.

It's evidently done them no good mentally, all it's done is make them feel like less of a person and employee because of something they can't control.

The first time one of my team rang me to ask very tentatively if she could take the day off because she couldn't stand up without fainting/being sick (she has recurrent labrynthitis amongst other conditions) she was in tears apologising and before I could speak offered to work from home using her phone (no work laptop). I told her not to be ridiculous and she sobbed even more and said her old place of work had had a laptop delivered to her by 10am when suffering previously and she worked laid on the floor of her living room with a bucket next to her to vomit. It's fucking inhumane.

Everyone at our place now has a laptop they can use from home if they need it - so in OP's scenario, if the employee woke up at lunch and felt like he could check his email for anything urgent, great - BUT there is absolutely the expectation that if what you need is to sleep and recover, that you do that.

I've given a couple of talks on our approach to work/life balance generally at our local FSB events and there's always a certain category of employers in the room who look at me like I've suggested free handjobs and crack pipes for all. So depressing.

I think if he was relying on stat sick pay he’d be coming in.

@echt

Not RTFT but why does the original person have to name their reason for being sick?

Where I work you ring in sick and no-one's business.

We have to tell our manager, god knows why. I think it's a bit shocking that everybody in the office knows the reason, unless the sickee put on a WhatsApp group or similar and so shared it themselves.

Using sickness to determine redundancies could end you with employee tribunals for discrimination. I’m really surprised that’s actually been happening.

Whilst I am enjoying the competitive MN under-sleepers, sleep deprivation is very serious. It’s not just mental health, but it affects physical health (links to diabetes, heart disease, weight gain). Whilst lack of sleep isn’t a medical illness, the symptoms that can arise can be and mitigating that early can make a difference.

I’d be interested to know if PPs would consider stress to be a legitimate reason to be off? Like sleep deprivation, it’s not a medical condition in and of itself but the symptoms can be. Would you find stress an acceptable reason?

Lets the rest of the team down and you can always predict the people who will use an excuse not to come to work.

He's not sick. He's undoubtedly extremely tired but that's not the same as being sick. It's a ridiculous reason for calling in sick. I manage a number of staff and would be asking him to explore other options such as unpaid leave. I'd also refer him to Occupational Health

I took a day off for no sleep as i operate dangerous xray equipment. Yanbu

The only time I called in sick for no sleep was when I was 37 weeks pregnant with SPD, parenting a two year old and working full time.

As a life long insomniac and fellow human being, whomever calls in sick because they're tired has my full sympathy. I have wanted to do this countless times. As a colleague and senior manager however, and as a person who has never done this, this earns my disrespect and I will work less hard for you on your behalf and it does factor in my considerations for job opportunities. I very much look foward to retirement when I can set aside this nastier part of me and just be humane and supportive.

I think lack of sleep is a valid reason.

Would you want your brain surgeon to come to work with no sleep? Your bus driver? Your children's teacher?

Lack of sleep is debilitating

Absolutely ridiculous reason to take time off sick.

When I was a uniformed response police officer on nights I was once so tired that I stopped to question a person who was walking about, only to realise this person was a post box . Nights used to kill me as a single mum with small kids.

I'm guessing this isn't the UK if you worked with a newborn and so does this man's wife - that would be quite unusual here? If it's the US where people routinely return after 6 weeks the expectations around this might be quite different? In the UK I've never known anyone to call in sick because they were up with the kids unless the children themselves were ill. With DS1 I returned to work after 5 months - due to my specific circumstances I had to to get enhanced maternity pay - and he was in the depths of the four month sleep regression and I do look back and think I should never have been driving my hour's commute down the motorway and it did impact on my work. But if I'd called in sick for being tired I wouldn't have been in again for four months, since things didn't improve until we got so desperate we sleep trained at 9 months! I suspect this is why sleep training seems to be more popular in the US and why a lot of their sleep blogs etc talk about doing it at 4 months, which is verboten in the UK - because they're all back at work then and it is quite unliveable. But I can't imagine that the solution is that people just take loads of sick time - I'd think if it were then people would actually see the point of a longer maternity leave...

If i phoned in sick every time I didn't sleep well I'd be always at home

I've slept badly all my life. I've gone to work on no sleep at all on occasion but I just have to get on with on with it. And i don't work in an office either, I've had physical factory jobs where I need to concentrate.

Mind you I wonder if surgeons have insomnia. They must do and I wonder if call in sick if they've had no sleep?

Calling in sick in a normal job because you're tired isn't a great excuse tbh

I hate gossipy workplaces. Especially where people feel they have the right to 'assess the validity' of other people's sick leave (always from a position of judgemental ignorance).

My experience is that calling in sick because of not sleeping properly, is something young, childless people do. Whereas parents just recognise that this is life and get on with it. But, as pps have pointed out, there are different types as well as levels of not sleeping and they affect people differently.

Whether this chap's manager needs to talk to him about his sick leave (confidentially), will depend on the job and the firm's policies.

If he wanted to seek support, or tips on sharing the night-time baby-care load so both parents get as much sleep as possible, he could post anonymously on Mumsnet.

Both parents working, with a very young baby, rather than one being on mat leave, must be very hard.

Taking a day off is fair enough, we can all hit rock bottom but persistently taking time off means they need more childcare/a better system at home. Nearly everyone here has had a newborn, some twins but haven't taken sick days, my exh took 2 days, the day I was in labour, and the following day to pick me up then went back to work, he did help a fair amount, often up until 1am (both mine were nightmare sleeping) and I slept in the evening before switching over - it's quite normal to sleep in shifts and nap between feeds

Unpaid leave or a holiday but not sick.

@drinkplease

Sounds familiar, dd hasn't gone to sleep yet, thankfully she's an adult but lives with me

I think it depends on the reason, what he is doing about it and to an extent, the job he works in. But generally I don't think it's accepted as a good enough reason, particularly if it happens more than once.

I work in an industry where safety is critical. We must be able to perform the functions of our job properly. However we are often tired and don't sleep well due to shift work, so tiredness alone is not a good reason not to come in. The debilitating exhaustion and fatigue of having a young baby in the house may be too much though to work safely. However, I have only known one person to use this reason, and I've known many to catch up on sleep in their breaks. Taking time off because you didn't sleep well is hugely frowned upon, even though it is a perfectly valid reason not to come to work because the person doesn't feel they could do their job safely.

If something is affecting a person to the point they cannot work then they must take steps to do something to improve the situation. Not easy with a young baby I know. We had to do sleep training on return from maternity leave with a non-sleeping baby as I literally couldn't continue to work after about 4 hours of broken sleep, and I couldn't afford to give up my job (I am the main earner). So many new fathers I have worked with over the years have struggled through the exhaustion after their two weeks of paternity leave are over, so it is possible to make it work.
Unless he can afford to give up work, they need help at home if they can't manage between them. But ideally he and his DP/DW need to work as a team. Another option could be flexible working, so he can work hours that work better for him, or a temporary reduction in hours (and obviously pay). He cannot continue like this because it will have a detrimental impact on his job and family life.

That's pathetic!

Agree that lack of sleep is often debilitating meaning you wouldn't be able to do your job effectively or perhaps even safely. So maybe for the odd occasion a sick day is the most appropriate option. My concern with this situation, though, is there's no guarantee it will get better any time soon, and there's no way for the employer or team members to anticipate when he'll need to take time in future and plan for that accordingly. Appreciate his partner is also working but personally I think some part of the arrangement needs to change.

If someone feels they’re not fit for work that’s a good enough reason. I go through periods of insomnia and I’ve taken days off from being too tired (I don’t have any kids). My workplace has never been anything but supportive, I probably have more sick days than the average person but I can’t help that. Dictating how many times someone can be ill per year is, as a pp said, dystopian ableist bullshit.

For an 'odd occasion' then who cares... but the baby will be a baby for a long time. This isn't sustainable so not acceptable except like 1-2 days/year.

DD called in sick due to no sleep due to partying all night. No on.

Although it's something I have never done myself, I just don't judge people's reason for phoning in dick.
If someone says they are unfit to work, it is not my place to tell then that they are

I think if there are two parents then they should be able to manage it. If he was a lone parent then that's different. Or a mother with a partner but with a young breastfed baby so they can't share night time wakings.