To think calling in sick for no sleep is a good enough reason?

[Rachelinaa]

I work in an office that's been open through most of lockdown due to admin we do being essential.
Recently one of my workmates has been calling in sick a lot because he hasn't been sleeping well as he's got a baby at home that won't sleep. I was shocked to hear other people at work saying they thought it was a ridiculous reason not to come to work and we've all had to come to work tired. But I thought they'd be able to see the difference between being tired and not sleeping at all. His baby has colic and the mum also works.
I've called in sick before for being too tired when my baby was a newborn and didn't sleep. I wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this was? I personally don't want someone driving to work if they're too tired to focus and I can't think that the boss would want someone in more likely to make mistakes.

@ElphabaTheGreen

I was a manager with the local council and I definitely had to ask the reason when someone phoned in sick

By law, however, the employee doesn’t actually have to tell you anything beyond ‘I’m sick.’ (Google it - ACAS is quite clear on the matter.) Just as long as you’re aware and don’t go pushing anyone to disclose as you could get into hot water if you were to do so. Most people will disclose so most of the time it’s not an issue, but employers aren’t automatically entitled to details.

By law employers also don’t have to allow any sick time unless your covered under the legislation pertaining to illnesses classed as disabilities. Your contract states that you will turn up to work, no exemptions. So taking puss out of your employer and workmates in this way is never a good idea. And yes, it is a puss take when 2 adults cannot manage their own lives.

By law, however, the employee doesn’t actually have to tell you anything beyond ‘I’m sick.’ (Google it - ACAS is quite clear on the matter.) Just as long as you’re aware and don’t go pushing anyone to disclose as you could get into hot water if you were to do so. Most people will disclose so most of the time it’s not an issue, but employers aren’t automatically entitled to details.

This is not true. They don’t have to pay you sick pay unless they are satisfied you are sick so if they ask you need to tell them or risk not getting paid.

Different people manage lack of sleep differently. Some can push through, others can't. I've generally been a push through because I vary between sleeping badly and insomnia. Then I had DS. Fell asleep in work twice when he was small, once in an actual meeting. It was gently suggested that if I'm that tired I shouldn't be in work.

This wouldn't bother me. It's up to the individual to decide is they are well enough to work. And up to their manager to discuss if this isn't acceptable

Of course your child and your relationship must always comes first before work, but your work is an employment contract that you need to prioritise too if you want to keep paying your bills.

You fulfil the contract and you get paid. I'm sure that parent would have got their sleepy arse into work if the employer said, sure that is fine you have the day off any time you are a bit tired, we'll just deduct the cost of your cover from your wages.

@RedcurrantPuff

By law, however, the employee doesn’t actually have to tell you anything beyond ‘I’m sick.’ (Google it - ACAS is quite clear on the matter.) Just as long as you’re aware and don’t go pushing anyone to disclose as you could get into hot water if you were to do so. Most people will disclose so most of the time it’s not an issue, but employers aren’t automatically entitled to details.

This is not true. They don’t have to pay you sick pay unless they are satisfied you are sick so if they ask you need to tell them or risk not getting paid.

Nope. Truly. By law an employer cannot press you to disclose why you’re off sick. They can insist on a sick note, but even then an employee is within their rights to ask their GP to not write on the sick note what they’re off with.

You fulfil the contract and you get paid. I'm sure that parent would have got their sleepy arse into work if the employer said, sure that is fine you have the day off any time you are a bit tired, we'll just deduct the cost of your cover from your wages.

Probably. I'd guess their work would likely be substandard though and prone to errors and mistakes. Or they might just fall asleep anyway like I did...

I’m not saying non-disclosure is the right course of action, BTW, and I would start to treat with a little (quiet) suspicion an employee who didn’t disclose. Just as an employer/manager it’s very important to know that you are NOT within your rights to press for details.

I also think the husband in the OP is taking the piss, as I indicated earlier.

I work part time - occasionally I sleep really badly, and if I either overslept, or woke and felt I was so tired I wasn't able to work effectively, I'd take the time off and switch my hours.
When I've worked full time, I'd maybe start later and make the time up. Probably no more than once a year though.
Would always make the time up, rather than take sick leave & expect others to cover my work.

how would you feel if the person was your employee? how would you address the situation

I have chronic insomnia. I can manage on less sleep than most people get, but there does come a point where I am good for nothing. I can get to the stage where my exhaustion makes me extremely anxious and I get easily confused and clumsy. My words get mixed up, and my reactions become slower. I become dizzy, feel sick and find it hard to keep warm.

I take zopiclone when I am getting to this stage. I can't take them regularly as they stop working, and I am only prescribed a very small amount, so I only take one when I feel the warning signs of this coming on.

There is tiredness that we all feel, and tiredness that affects your ability to function. Only the man knows which one he is experiencing.

It's not the tiredness that is the issue - you take split shifts to look after the baby whilst one of you sleeps, therefore no need to blame the baby for tiredness. This is fixable but they are choosing not to fix it because everyone else picks up the pieces.

I think it's time we get real about the impact of sleep deprivation on some new parents productivity at work.

Sometimes I am so tired I might as well be coming to work blind drunk. The effect on my accuracy and productivity is huge, but my employer is all about presenteeism. Luckily I don't work in a job like healthcare where my mistakes could kill someone!

@mogsrus

how would you feel if the person was your employee? how would you address the situation

And how would you feel if the person calling in tired was your child’s teacher/sonographer doing your baby’s ultrasound/your consultant who you’d waited 18 months to see etc etc

Is it only some jobs that it’s ok to phone in tired for?

Haven't RTWT, but no it's not a good reason unless you're a single parent. If things are crap, new parents sleep in shifts. One of my friends has 18 mo triplets and the three of them have never simultaneously slept through the night. It's much better now but in the early days, her DH would get home from work at 6pm, take over the triplets until midnight so my friend could sleep and then would sleep until 7 before getting up to help with them in the morning. They couldn't afford any help and that was the only way they could survive it.

Well I’ve done it. I have a job that I need to be 100% on top form for. There’s been a couple of times my toddler has been unwell in the night and both me and DH have been up with her. It’s all very well saying take it in shifts but it doesn’t always work out how you want it to does it. Also, broken sleep can be so much worse than no sleep. On those occasions I’ve phoned and said my kids unwell so I’ll need to stay home/take the day sick as I’ve been up all night and given them the option of how to put it down. I have a good relationship with the management, they know I put far more in than I take out and have been to work on several occasions with 3 hours sleep behind me. I have no regrets and really couldn’t care less if any of my colleagues were not ok with that. It’s nothing to do with them anyway.

@TotorosFurryBehind

I think it's time we get real about the impact of sleep deprivation on some new parents productivity at work.

Sometimes I am so tired I might as well be coming to work blind drunk. The effect on my accuracy and productivity is huge, but my employer is all about presenteeism. Luckily I don't work in a job like healthcare where my mistakes could kill someone!

The problem is there is absolutely no solution.

I do work in healthcare, I’m fully aware that collapsing from fatigue on the job could kill someone, plus I have a 1+ hour commute there and then back again at the end of each shift. But there is no conceivable way I could have adjusted my working pattern without a considerable and permanent loss to my income during the times my DCs weren’t sleeping, for the length of time they weren’t sleeping for, so there was absolutely no option other than to harden up, drink an awful lot of coffee and show up.

@ThrowingAShellstrop

Well I’ve done it. I have a job that I need to be 100% on top form for. There’s been a couple of times my toddler has been unwell in the night and both me and DH have been up with her. It’s all very well saying take it in shifts but it doesn’t always work out how you want it to does it. Also, broken sleep can be so much worse than no sleep. On those occasions I’ve phoned and said my kids unwell so I’ll need to stay home/take the day sick as I’ve been up all night and given them the option of how to put it down. I have a good relationship with the management, they know I put far more in than I take out and have been to work on several occasions with 3 hours sleep behind me. I have no regrets and really couldn’t care less if any of my colleagues were not ok with that. It’s nothing to do with them anyway.

I think if you've put in more than expected before there will always be more leeway with both manager and colleagues - but it does affect colleagues if they have to pick up your work and stay late to get it finished, deadlines are sometimes not moveable.

It depends on the job. If you're a surgeon, long distance lorry driver, heavy machinery operator or similar, then coming to work on insufficient sleep could quite possibly put you or other people at serious risk. In those circumstances, you have no choice but to take the day off.

If you're in a fairly ordinary office job or similar, then it's a bit pathetic to call in sick just for being tired, and you should suck it up instead. It's taking the piss in my view.

I have been to work when I've had no sleep for two nights in a row (due to bad anxiety). It's awful but if I didn't go, I wouldn't get paid - as no company sick pay.

Everybody in a team is off sick at some time meaning that everyone has their turn at covering. The reason someone is off sick is irrelevant. It’s not up to your colleagues to judge what an acceptable reason might be.

It's not sick - it's avoidable tiredness.

It’s all very well saying take it in shifts but it doesn’t always work out how you want it to does it

That’s why maybe once, possibly twice, is acceptable. Regularly, as this bloke seems to be doing it, is not. Overnight sickness isn’t the same, and neither is it regular.

Ultimately, you're not sick though... just tired. So the leave should be annual leave/unpaid leave. Or is it acceptable for non-parents to call in sick because they have been up gaming all night or are tired because they work two jobs?

@JackieTheFart

It’s all very well saying take it in shifts but it doesn’t always work out how you want it to does it

That’s why maybe once, possibly twice, is acceptable. Regularly, as this bloke seems to be doing it, is not. Overnight sickness isn’t the same, and neither is it regular.

I had a colicky baby. I felt very unwell at times from dealing with her. I remember being so tired I saw things that weren’t there.

I get it if you don’t understand because you’ve never been in that situation but you don’t. Get to judge. If that’s the case, is it ok for me to judge when a colleague takes 3-6 weeks off twice to three times a year because of anxiety? I get anxiety but I’ve never needed time off like that before.