To think it’s about time all women were Ms or Mrs following this plane error

[AtlasPine]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/09/tui-plane-serious-incident-every-miss-on-board-child-weight-birmingham-majorca

The confusion caused here could have had dire consequences.

Isn’t it about time we dropped the title ‘Miss’ to differentiate between adult women and girls?

@Gobbeldegook

I didn't dare suggest scales 😂 But I'd be happy to be weighed. Too many snowflakes about to take offense though

Snowflake?

I prefer avalanche

@MissBarbary

I agree there just needs to be one for the reasons you state.

I used Ms as an example because thats the title I use when asked, as it seems the only one that doesn't give age or marital status away.

If there is not a Ms option I use Mr just out of Principal!!!

@Mummadeze

I can’t believe the average adult female weight is 69k (10 stone 6). Makes me feel massively overweight. I thought as an average it would be higher than that!

For the purposes of the approved system TUI were treating anybody age 13 as an adult, and weighing (female 69kg) so there's scope for "underload" there.

If you look at the document/survey I posted upthread you'll see in the conclusions there's a recommendation the figures be revised upwards - not sure how far that's got - and in any event many operators operate to other (approved) figures. Certainly where I worked for many years, Long Haul scheduled operations, not short haul to from the Med etc., we used a different (EASA/CAA approved) schedule which resulted in higher weights.

[lack of edit function]

..anybody age 13 or more as an adult and therefore weighing 69kg if they were female.

[/lack of edit function]

@daisypond

It wouldn’t be grossly unfair. Tall people are generally advantaged in life. Shorter people have to suffer unfairness in all sorts of ways.

Tall people are already disadvantaged on flights as we don't fit in the seats! We get told off in concerts and cinemas for daring to be present, laughed at and asked things like "is the air thin up there?", sent to the back in photos, mistaken for men, told we are ridiculous for wearing heels and told we look like lesbians when wearing flats, and struggle to buy clothing because the high street model designs on an average height person. Kitchen worktops are too low for comfort. Even prams are designed for shorter people with low handlebars that give tall people backache. Bugger off with your sweeping generalisations.

[quote LyraShaeLilly]**@MissBarbary

I agree there just needs to be one for the reasons you state.

I used Ms as an example because thats the title I use when asked, as it seems the only one that doesn't give age or marital status away.

If there is not a Ms option I use Mr just out of Principal!!! [/quote]
@MissBarbary

You are indeed within your rights to use any title you like (as long as you are not being deceptive for profit, eg illegal use of Dr, Sir, Dame, Prof, etc.)
I think the point that most people are missing is that the only reason businesses collect this particular information is so they know how to address you appropriately to your preference. The plane software was clearly flawed.
Personally, I am offended when a professional stranger presumes they can call me by my first name in a formal context. I prefer to be addressed by my surname by banks, lawyers and customer service representatives, as I am not their best mate. I don't care if they use the wrong title.
In general, companies need to know your "preferred title", so they can communicate with you in a professional unlazy manner. However the forms traditionally just say "title". So everyone is within their rights to use any title they like. I once wrote "Other/Supreme Commander". It was not important. However, if a man uses a female title (or vice versa), it could cause problems with access to the aircraft, security or just with head counts aboard. But if challenged, it wouldn't be unreasonable for people to accept it as an simple error. Trivial really,) For many people (but not all), marital status can be a sensitive subject. So people need the choice of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Madam or other to cover all people's preferences, regardless of what their marital status might actually be.
Well done writing "Mr"!

MakeMathsFun

Your long post completely misses the point.

I am well aware that You are indeed within your rights to use any title you like (as long as you are not being deceptive for profit, eg illegal use of Dr, Sir, Dame, Prof, etc.)
I think the point that most people are missing is that the only reason businesses collect this particular information is so they know how to address you appropriately to your preference

Er no, I don't think anyone has missed that point.

The point, which has soared over your head, is why on earth does there have to be separate titles to show whether a woman is married or not whereas all that is required for a man is something to show he is (a) male and (b) over 18.

For many people (but not all), marital status can be a sensitive subject. So people need the choice of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Madam or other to cover all people's preferences

This makes no sense at all. "Mr" discloses nothing about a man's marital status. There's no reason why it should- the airline is transporting him A to B, not thinking of getting hitched to him. ("Madam" isn't even a title).

Why do you think women should disclose whether they are married or single but men don't need to?

I used Miss until I was in about my mid 20s and then it felt a bit weird to me so I started using Ms.

Someone needs to brush up on their excel skills and use the year of birth to allocate child or adult weights for aeroplanes. Not the persons title.

Back to the point though, I don’t think getting rid off Miss is the answer but I do think it should be more common to use Ms over Miss, particularly once you become and adult. I think at the moment a lot of people see Ms as a title divorced women use rather than never married women. I’m all for people using whatever title they want but i still think the whole Miss / Mrs / Ms thing is outdated.

I think Miss should be reserved for female children.

Ms for adult females - we’re not property.

For many people (but not all), marital status can be a sensitive subject. So people need the choice of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Madam or other to cover all people's preferences, regardless of what their marital status might actually be.

I wonder why marital status is only a sensitive subject for women?

@daisypond

Mrs historically doesn’t indicate marriage. It’s an honorific title for often older women. A housekeeper or cook in olden days would be Mrs- as befits their status as senior members of the household.

The issue is not what it referred to historically, it's the current meaning that is important. And currently Mrs refers to a married woman.

For many people (but not all), marital status can be a sensitive subject. So people need the choice of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Madam or other to cover all people's preferences, regardless of what their marital status might actually be.

So many things wrong with this.

Why does an airline need to know if I am married or not?

Why do they NOT need to know if my male partner is married or not?

'Madam' has absolutely nothing to do with marital status and is not a title.

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

I think Miss should be reserved for female children.

Ms for adult females - we’re not property.

Yes - agreed. Or alternatively "Mrs" is used by all adult women- either is fine. It's the need to distinguish between married and single which is objectionable.

My grandfather after WW2 flew home from Singapore where he has been a POW. His luggage was overweight but as he was under they let it go.

@MissBarbary

MakeMathsFun

Your long post completely misses the point.

I am well aware that You are indeed within your rights to use any title you like (as long as you are not being deceptive for profit, eg illegal use of Dr, Sir, Dame, Prof, etc.)
I think the point that most people are missing is that the only reason businesses collect this particular information is so they know how to address you appropriately to your preference

Er no, I don't think anyone has missed that point.

The point, which has soared over your head, is why on earth does there have to be separate titles to show whether a woman is married or not whereas all that is required for a man is something to show he is (a) male and (b) over 18.

For many people (but not all), marital status can be a sensitive subject. So people need the choice of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Madam or other to cover all people's preferences

This makes no sense at all. "Mr" discloses nothing about a man's marital status. There's no reason why it should- the airline is transporting him A to B, not thinking of getting hitched to him. ("Madam" isn't even a title).

Why do you think women should disclose whether they are married or single but men don't need to?

@missbarbary,

I totally agree that it is wrong that women should disclose whether they are married or not. The neutral term "Ms" has been in the English language since the 17th Century, and it was revived in the 20th Century I believe for this new purpose. Hence, like men, women do not have to disclose their marital status. "Mrs" will remain an option because there are still many women who continue to choose to use it. My grandmother, for example, has no desire to change her title for a third time this late in her life. She likes being "Mrs".
Sorry about the "Madam" example, as I used it in the wrong context.
I'll try again: (not as a title, but as a term of address), the military have surpassed us all by using "Ma'am" like "Sir" and it reflects no information about marital status. I only mentioned it because I saw a school in England intentionally actively use it instead of "Miss" or "Mrs" to address female teachers. The school had a high percentage of military children and it worked well. I thought it a good neutral address, although "Miss" can still be used neutrally like this whether a teacher is married or not.
Furthermore, the French use "Madame" with two meanings: either a married woman, or as a sign of respect for a more mature woman irrespective of whether she is married or not. I think that's where I got confused with "Madam".
So, all in all, what's missing is for men to have an additional title choice that permits them to indicate that they are married. It would be handy to have the option to help reduce the number of unwanted advances!
I think that's why "Mrs" exists in the first place.
Here's what I propose, for female and male title options respectively:
Young (or unmarried): Miss and Master;
Anonymous status: Ms and Fellow;
[Married choice: Mrs and Mr - for those who may want to express status.]
And for gender neutral or non-specified: Mx.
Hopefully that would equalise the the situation!

You're right it's an avalanche. Snowflakes don't want to know if they're married, or that they're overweight, get offended by perfectly sensible comments.
Life is so depressing nowadays.
I stand by the comment it should be on total weight of person and luggage!

What is wrong is that women should have to disclose if they are married or not, when men do not have to.

You do not have to use Mrs, if you do t want to. You have the option of using Ms. Please do not dictate what the rest of us should or should not do with regards to our own names.

You do not have to use Mrs, if you do t want to. You have the option of using Ms. Please do not dictate what the rest of us should or should not do with regards to our own names.

The trouble is that as long as Mrs and Miss exist, Ms is not a truly neutral option. Men don’t have a title that by its existence conveys ‘I have no particular wish to use a title that conveys my marital status.’ ‘My marital status is not relevant’ is built in.

@Reachersloveinterest, when I use Ms, people assume I'm a Mrs, and they change it to Mrs.

I don't mind too much if I get Mrs (partner's surname)
but for some reason Mrs Mysurname bugs me. It's my mum's name not mine.

@JassyRadlett

You do not have to use Mrs, if you do t want to. You have the option of using Ms. Please do not dictate what the rest of us should or should not do with regards to our own names.

The trouble is that as long as Mrs and Miss exist, Ms is not a truly neutral option. Men don’t have a title that by its existence conveys ‘I have no particular wish to use a title that conveys my marital status.’ ‘My marital status is not relevant’ is built in.

So we should give men an additional option, not reduce the options for women.

No, Reacher, just have one for women and one for men.

I can't imagine many men would want to be known as Master, because why bother and they'd probably find it a bit infantilising tbh

So we should give men an additional option, not reduce the options for women.

But why? What purpose is served by the gas company being able to pick out the married men from the unmarried?

What benefit does anyone derive a formal title that denotes their marital status?

And still we would find ourselves in the situation of having to state that we don’t think anyone needs to know our marital status, rather than it being as irrelevant in our titles as it is in reality to the people who use them.