To think it’s about time all women were Ms or Mrs following this plane error

[AtlasPine]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/09/tui-plane-serious-incident-every-miss-on-board-child-weight-birmingham-majorca

The confusion caused here could have had dire consequences.

Isn’t it about time we dropped the title ‘Miss’ to differentiate between adult women and girls?

I thought Ms, was a woman who was divorced

Why do you think that? It’s not right. I’ve been Ms my whole life, single, married, never divorced. My DDs have been Ms since they were born. Ms is, or should be, the default status for all.

@Amaksy

I’m even seeing the average adult weight of 69kgs and thinking really!!

You'd be right to think "really?" because it's incorrect.

69kg is the accepted average female adult weight for the sorts of short haul flights TUI and other airlines do around Europe on the type of aircraft they use (Holiday charter with 30 or more seats)

That number isn't based on guess work, it's derived from surveys (basically mass weigh ins) done on a routine basis by the likes of EASA or the CAA at various airports from time to time. Adult males have a different standard weight of 83kg for those categories of flights.

For those who are really interested in this sort of thing and how this is all done there's a bit of light bedtime reading here that tells the full'ish story... you'll find that 69 kg comes up on page 85.....

www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Weight%20Survey%20R20090095%20Final.pdf

I thought Ms, was a woman who was divorced

Why do you think this? Genuine question, as I keep hearing this repeated on MN, but I've only ever met one person who believed this in real life and that was 20 years ago. Everyone else I have ever met understands what Ms means.

Ms has been around for decades and decades, so why is there such persistent confusion about what it means?

I’m married but have always used Ms. I don’t like the fact my marital status is public property yet men remain Mr regardless.

Why are women classified by their marital status to begin with though? As someone in their early 20s, it all seems very archaic

Miss is equivalent to Master.

Ms was always meant for all women, not just divorced or single. Your marital status is no one’s business

Most male children are listed as "Master." But it would be much simpler, and accurate, to simply note the age of the traveler. Then use average weight in the age range.

No, I don't think "Miss" should be dropped. It is a choice, and we fought too hard to have choices. Let's not get precious about those who don't choose our option! I get a bit irate with women who put down those who want to be housewives. They invariably rant about "We fought so hard so that we could have careers!" No, we fought so hard so that a woman could choose to have a career."

Why can’t we give our weight when booking the ticket?

@notimagain thanks for sharing this as it helps understand why we ought to also stick with the kgs when travelling :)

Ms is, or should be, the default status for all.

Who are you to dictate that for the rest of us? Don't we get a say?

I don't understand why we need a title at all when we have perfectly good actual names.

@lissie123

Why can’t we give our weight when booking the ticket?

They don't want your "naked" weight. They want your weight fully clothed, including everything in your pockets plus the weight of your cabin baggage.

The software error caused a reduction of 1.2t on what would have already been an estimate using the average weights. The 737-800 would have weight approx 66t at take-off so the error was less than 2% (which is almost insignificant).

@Mamanyt

Most male children are listed as "Master." But it would be much simpler, and accurate, to simply note the age of the traveler. Then use average weight in the age range.

No, I don't think "Miss" should be dropped. It is a choice, and we fought too hard to have choices. Let's not get precious about those who don't choose our option! I get a bit irate with women who put down those who want to be housewives. They invariably rant about "We fought so hard so that we could have careers!" No, we fought so hard so that a woman could choose to have a career."

Yes, and unmarried men over the age of 18 are currently fighting so they can be known as 'master' Actually, they're not, I'm just joking 🙄 They don't seem arsed about that particular "choice" for some reason

Just add child or adult to the booking process?

Men aren't subject to this crap where you declare your married state every time you fill in a bloody form.

The software error caused a reduction of 1.2t on what would have already been an estimate using the average weights. The 737-800 would have weight approx 66t at take-off so the error was less than 2% (which is almost insignificant).

Agreed and FWIW if you read the actual incident report you'll see the pilots assumed they would have a tailwind for takeoff and planned to use (higher) thrust accordingly. As it turned out the wind was calm and they ended up with more marginally engine thrust set during takeoff than than required, even with the minor weight increase, hence the report's conclusion that the safety of the flight was not effected.

Since I married I’ve used the title Ms (not divorced) and would much prefer the male system whereby everyone is known as Mr after the age of 18 whether married or not. I would be keen for all women over 18 to be referred to as Ms and it would have made things a lot simpler at school where some teachers were forever correcting pupils with ‘my mother was Mrs -, I’m Miss -‘
The error in this example seemed to come about when someone entered weights based on the culture in their country where miss/master referred to children and Mrs/Mr referred to adults. Are all the people going on about choice, do they get offended when they go to France and are referred to as Madame or do they just accept that in that culture, adult women are referred to Madame and girls as mademoiselle?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16503341

@TestingTestingWonTooFree

I don’t think that’s a good reason. Presumably they can manage when Mister and Master are both shortened to Mr. I do think it would be good if women actively made choices about their name/title, particularly on marriage.

Master? Really? I don't think I've ever come across the option of "master" for a male child.

The whole concept of "Mrs/ Miss" is utterly ridiculous. There's no good reason for using separate words for married women and unmarried women.

Other countries don't do this. Madam, Frau, Mevrouw just mean "adult female.

I am married but loathe "Mrs" I swap between Ms or Miss. I would accept Mrs if all it meant was a female over 18- e.g KLM makes me Mrs.

@DancesWithDaffodils

Every plane ticket I've bought, the kids have been Master. Why cant they use whether the ticket has been bought fof an adult or child? Or do they have a higher average weight for men?

I don't recall ever seeing "master" in the many plane tickets I bought for my son

@skirk64

YABU. Women have the choice to be called Miss, Mrs or Ms. There is nothing right or wrong with choosing any of them.

To me "Ms" always seems to indicate the person using it is insecure, or at least they they believe there is something inferior with one or other of the traditional titles.

You see I've always wondered about why married women feel the need to announce to the world that they've bagged a man.

I can't stand Mrs- I've never used it; to me it's far more a sign of insecurity than Miss or Ms.

@MimiPigeon

YABU. Women should be able to call themselves anything they want. They don’t distinguish between men in any way - they’re all Mr.

Totally true MimiPigeon.

With reference to the original question, Miss does not necessarily mean young girls. It can mean an unmarried woman of any age. It can also be adopted by a married woman just like Ms.
A young man or boy is a Master. And strangely there is no representation for distinguishing married/unmarried man.
As marital status is nobody's business, all women should adopt Miss if they choose to, or Ms. It is indeed a woman's choice of three (Mrs, Miss or Ms), whereas a man is limited to only two options (Master and Mr). Esquire could be used I suppose. So nearly equal.

Who are you to dictate that for the rest of us? Don't we get a say?

No, I don’t think anyone should have a say. There should be a universal title. It’s embarrassing the fuss that people make over their “choice” between Miss or Mrs. Like a toddler choosing between a purple unicorn and a pink mermaid. Irrelevant, infantilising and patronising.

@fib11235

The error in this example seemed to come about when someone entered weights based on the culture in their country where miss/master referred to children and Mrs/Mr referred to adults.

Sort of - someone upgraded an airline's check-in program so that every time that program was used (i.e. every flight) it automatically used weights based on the fact that in that someones culture miss referred to a child.

From the actual report:

"Part of the operator’s IT system was an integrated check-in system, which was undergoing an upgrade........The system programming was not carried out in the UK, and in the country where it was performed the title Miss was used for a child"

As far as I can see the report doesn't ever state the country involved..

The problem this IT upgrade was causing had been spotted, mitigation and a fix was in progress but this flight got missed.

If anybody want's to read the actual (only 6 page) report, rather then the medias' version of it, here is the link:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/604f423be90e077fdf88493f/Boeing_737-8K5_G-TAWG_04-21.pdf

No, I don’t think anyone should have a say. There should be a universal title. It’s embarrassing the fuss that people make over their “choice” between Miss or Mrs. Like a toddler choosing between a purple unicorn and a pink mermaid. Irrelevant, infantilising and patronising.

Oh, so we all have to do what you think is right and stuff the rest of us and how we feel? Now who is being a toddler.

I've never once when this subject comes up heard any convincing argument from the "Mrs" brigade as to why there needs to be a title which announces their marital status.

French, German, Dutch women seem to manage fine with just being adults.

What a ridiculous system. Surely they should use adult male/female, or child?