To think it’s about time all women were Ms or Mrs following this plane error

[AtlasPine]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/09/tui-plane-serious-incident-every-miss-on-board-child-weight-birmingham-majorca

The confusion caused here could have had dire consequences.

Isn’t it about time we dropped the title ‘Miss’ to differentiate between adult women and girls?

[Thewinterofdiscontent]

AmieeCraig “Mrs and Miss have been around for hundreds of years so haven't been 'thrust upon' anyone”.

It has. Originally mister and mistress were used for men and women, so neither title had any relation to marriage status.
It was changed later on when women were absolutely judged on their married status.Hopefully we have moved beyond the judgement of unmarried women now?

You shouldn’t have a choice that continues to drag people down. I get that women love their husbands/ being married but it shouldn’t be the definition of you for the purpose of correspondence, especially when the presumably equally proud husband doesn’t have to.

What is the problem exactly with calling all adult women Ms? I know you “ don’t like it” but for what reason?

[AmieeCraig]

The point zooming over your head is that the existence of this apparent "choice" is exactly what you are decrying- an arbitrary title thrust upon them.

Mrs and Miss have been around for hundreds of years so haven't been 'thrust upon' anyone.

These days women can use Mrs, Miss or Ms. As a pp said in this thread if you want to abolish the titles, start a national campaign rather than try and change what a woman wants to call herself. She has the right to decide from the options we have available.

[MissBarbary]

[quote EscapeDragon]@TomHardyAndMe
I said 'women and girls' because that's what this thread is about, so what men and boys want to call themselves is neither here nor there.

Presumably you think there is some advantage in being able to use different titles?
Actually I think that each individual should have the freedom to decide for themselves, rather than having an arbitrary title thrust upon them whether they like it or not.[/quote]
Actually I think that each individual should have the freedom to decide for themselves, rather than having an arbitrary title thrust upon them whether they like it or not

The point zooming over your head is that the existence of this apparent "choice" is exactly what you are decrying- an arbitrary title thrust upon them.

And as for "what men and boys call themselves being neither here nor there" - it's at the crux of it. Men have a title which doesn't tell the world they are married.

[EscapeDragon]

@TomHardyAndMe
I said 'women and girls' because that's what this thread is about, so what men and boys want to call themselves is neither here nor there.

Presumably you think there is some advantage in being able to use different titles?
Actually I think that each individual should have the freedom to decide for themselves, rather than having an arbitrary title thrust upon them whether they like it or not.

[MissBarbary]

@EscapeDragon

I think women (and girls) should be able to call themselves whatever they damn well please.

How do those poor , disadvantaged men cope with only having "Mr'?

What a terrible trial that must be.

[Thewinterofdiscontent]

Oh do stop. Prince Philip in no way makes an argument that “men change their names when they marry”.
They don’t. Because Mr is the default.
I have no issue with Miss as the female equivalent to Master. I do absolutely think that being called Miss because you aren’t married is frankly ridiculous.

There’s not really choice to call yourself what you want. I used the young girl example ; she can’t use Mrs.
A woman in her 80’s celebrating 50 year wedding anniversary would worry everyone if she called herself Miss.
Even on this very site for actual women, someone said they didn’t like Ms because it sounded like you were making a point!! Like people really should let everyone know if their married or not. It’s really horrible.

MrWinterofDiscontent gets away with being my dad, husband or son and no one telling him it’s the “wrong” title. How is that equality?

[SnowAllSpring]

@ancientgran

Whether you like it or not the Queen and Prince Philip had surnames just like everyone else. Dismissing things that don't suit your argument doesn't really add anything.

The queen is quite literally above the law and not representative of anyone else in the UK.

Using this as an example in fact just emphasises how very unusual and unrepresentative it is.

[bluebluezoo]

But why does a woman want or need to be called "Mrs"?

How about 'just because she wants to'

So as pp said, if my 8 year old wanted to call herself Mrs blue, instead of Miss blue, that would be absolutely fine?

Just like 8 year old boys can be Mr, now Master has fallen out of use.

[TomHardyAndMe]

@EscapeDragon

I think women (and girls) should be able to call themselves whatever they damn well please.

Just women and girls though? Why aren’t men demanding the same - presumably you think there is some advantage in being able to use different titles?

If you do, what’s the advantage in having them linked to marital status rather than age/dietary choices/whether you prefer tea, coffee or hot chocolate?

[EscapeDragon]

I think women (and girls) should be able to call themselves whatever they damn well please.

[TomHardyAndMe]

@AmieeCraig

But why does a woman want or need to be called "Mrs"?

How about 'just because she wants to'.

Without any interest in what may be behind that want?

[AmieeCraig]

But why does a woman want or need to be called "Mrs"?

How about 'just because she wants to'.

[DuesToTheDirt]

BUT, airlines DO have dates of birth which need to be entered when checking in, so they DO already have a better way of determining how many children and how many adults are on the plane.

Absolutely. The right or choice to be Ms/Miss/Mrs, and whether it is feminist or not, is a red herring here. Some numpty programmer made a bad choice. We've had so much of this over the years, including

• my children have hyphenated surnames, but frequently come across computer systems that won't accept a hyphen in a name. They have to enter their names incorrectly, with no hyphens
  

• years ago, booking a flight, the system wouldn't let me and DH both use the title Dr! Only one Dr per couple
  

• I had two car insurance policies with Churchill, and associated Green Flag cover. I got the Green Flag app, and linked it to one car; it wouldn't accept the other car. I phoned them up and it turned out that one Churchill policy used the title Ms and one used the title Dr. But, the Green Flag dropdown only had 4 choice of title (Mr, Ms, Miss, Mrs) and wouldn't recognise me as the same person with car insurance in the name of Dr! The only way round this was to change the title on my car insurance to Ms.
  

I despair.

[RainingBatsAndFrogs]

I honestly would like to call myself Citizen Bats.

Would Ct be the best shortening? Or Cz?

And I would love all my fellow Citizens to be citizens alongside me, undivided by sex, marital status, age, profession.

But it’s up to you all, obv.

[ancientgran]

@MissBarbary Your point about Prince Phillip is completely irrelevant given that out of the many, many titles he and his wife have and use the ones they never use are Mr Windsor and Mrs Windsor. Well the discussion had widened and people were talking about taking a man's name when you marry. Whether you like it or not the Queen and Prince Philip had surnames just like everyone else. Dismissing things that don't suit your argument doesn't really add anything.

[MissBarbary]

@AmieeCraig

Insisting everyone does something in a way which doesn’t perpetuate outdated ideas about women is a good thing surely? It surely tops trumps the “ but I like being called Miss or Mrs” in terms of logical argument.

The only way you'll stop the 'outdated ideas' is by changing titles completely. As a pp said, start a campaign if you are so passionate about it, otherwise let women have the autonomy to choose their title, whatever that may be. If someone wants to be Mrs, why take that away from her.

But why does a woman want or need to be called "Mrs"?

Men have no burning desire or need to pointlessy tell everyone from the gas and electricity supplier to airlines that they are married. Women who don't live in an English speaking country don't need to do it either.

[RainingBatsAndFrogs]

@ancientgran

Some men do change their names and not everyone takes their father's name. Prince Philip is in the news at the moment, he chose the name Mountbatten, not his father's name, and not originally his mother's family name. Some women don't change their name, I'm not sure but I don't think the Queen changed her name.

All sorts of things are possible and usually without insisting everyone has to do it your way.

Er, Philip was forced to renounce his Greek citizenship and to adopt an anglicised version of his German name in order to be ‘acceptable’.

He also wanted to give his children the name Mountbatten, but Parliament put pressure on the Queen and told her she couldn’t give her children their father’s name. Philip was outraged, (haven’t you watched The Crown ??) and raged that he was the ‘only man in the country’ who couldn’t give his children his name and that he was ‘nothing more than an amoeba’.

Not quite a leader in the non patriarchal naming field.

[AmieeCraig]

Insisting everyone does something in a way which doesn’t perpetuate outdated ideas about women is a good thing surely? It surely tops trumps the “ but I like being called Miss or Mrs” in terms of logical argument.

The only way you'll stop the 'outdated ideas' is by changing titles completely. As a pp said, start a campaign if you are so passionate about it, otherwise let women have the autonomy to choose their title, whatever that may be. If someone wants to be Mrs, why take that away from her.

[SnowAllSpring]

I don't really think having or not having a dishwasher is comparable with supporting or resisting patriarchal customs around women's rights and identities. Do you?

[Newkitchen123]

@SnowAllSpring

Not only am I Mrs but I also took his name and I wear a wedding ring! How very unmumsnet of me. Wait till I tell you I leave my shoes on in the house and I don't own a dishwasher!

Why, what do you think will happen?

(I've never owned a dishwasher in my life, by the way. I think you've got a bit muddled somewhere.)

I just followed the thread recently where the vast majority of responders couldn't possibly live without a dishwasher and the other one where entering a house with shoes on was the worst thing imaginable.
I sometimes wonder if I live in another world

[SnowAllSpring]

Not only am I Mrs but I also took his name and I wear a wedding ring! How very unmumsnet of me. Wait till I tell you I leave my shoes on in the house and I don't own a dishwasher!

Why, what do you think will happen?

(I've never owned a dishwasher in my life, by the way. I think you've got a bit muddled somewhere.)

[MissBarbary]

@Newkitchen123

Not only am I Mrs but I also took his name and I wear a wedding ring! How very unmumsnet of me. Wait till I tell you I leave my shoes on in the house and I don't own a dishwasher!

Your point being what exactly?

[MissBarbary]

@ancientgran

It is about his name though, sorry if that messes things up.

Your point about Prince Phillip is completely irrelevant given that out of the many, many titles he and his wife have and use the ones they never use are Mr Windsor and Mrs Windsor.

[Newkitchen123]

Not only am I Mrs but I also took his name and I wear a wedding ring! How very unmumsnet of me. Wait till I tell you I leave my shoes on in the house and I don't own a dishwasher!

[ancientgran]

@Thewinterofdiscontent

Insisting everyone does something in a way which doesn’t perpetuate outdated ideas about women is a good thing surely? It surely tops trumps the “ but I like being called Miss or Mrs” in terms of logical argument.

I’m not even sure we need to distinguish between child and adult as any legal requirement for age can be done by DOB. That would stop the discrimination of women of childbearing age as a PP mentioned.

It just doesn’t make sense. And it’s also daft to say you can chose what ever you want to be called when very clearly the titles have specific meaning. An eight year old girl called “Mrs” is clearly wrong ; people would form an opinion/ judgement on why she was called that it would be ridiculous to say “well that’s their problem”.

If this is about equality calling a female child Miss is no different to calling a male child Master so I don't see the problem.

I don't know why we need a title in the first place, if you're ordering a dress from M&S does the fact that you're a doctor matter, does the fact you're married or not matter but if we are going to let people use titles I'm all for them choosing their title.