Devastated DD denied special school

[Sendsystemsucks]

Will be appealing, but just another fight to be had.

DD is primary age dx ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia and language disorder. On a part time timetable. When in school DD parallel learns and spends 70% of her school time with her 1-1 in the hallway on her own. She has been known to hit, kick, bite, throw chairs and run off.

Apparantly mainstream can meet her needs and she doesn't need special school.

AIBU to think she needs special school?

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties

Good for you. Do you actually have any experience of special schools?

How much inclusion do you think there can be when a child needs everything to be differentiated and doesn’t have the social skills to have relationships with their able bodied neurotypical peers?

My twins are non-verbal, and even with 1:1 support their time at nursery was just them being kept safe. They didn’t interact with other children, they couldn’t engage in the same activities. There was no benefit to them being in that environment.

Since they started in their specialist school they are actually learning, understanding, they even have a friend. They are swimming, engaging with forest school, they are happy and their needs are being met.

Why would you be against that?

"Children with SEND do not have strong voices, we have to advocate for them, and I will not accept the narrative that “everybody is disrupted” when children with SEND are educated alongside their peers."

I don't care about others being disrupted.

My child is at specialist school he is at because it is the best place for him. He is an actual person not some ideological argument. He doesn't have to fit in with anyone's idea of where 'people like him' should be. He deserves what is right for him.

My child is at specialist school he is at because it is the best place for him. He is an actual person not some ideological argument. He doesn't have to fit in with anyone's idea of where 'people like him' should be. He deserves what is right for him

Exactly. I've seen people say that SEN children should be in mainstream in order for NT pupils to learn compassion. WTAF?
They're not a learning tool for others. They're people who deserve the environment that's right for them. Where they feel confident, safe, stimulated and happy.

I taught severely learning disabled children in a specialist school for many years. The most common reaction we got from parents of children who didn't join us until later in their primary years was "we should have done this years ago". Followed by " it used to be a battle to get him to school. Now he can't wait to get here ever morning!", and " when I used to pick him up the teachers always met me with something bad he'd done, or a problem. You meet me with a big smile and something good he's done today"

Many of them had hoped that their children would learn from being around NT children..It didn't work that way.

One of the underpinning principles of the SEN Code of Practice is helping children to achieve the best possible educational outcomes. How could children like mine achieve this in a class of 30 where they don’t understand what’s being said or taught, and where they are always doing different work to everyone else?

My twins are in a class of 7, with one teacher and six TAs. The activities are appropriate to their level, which builds their confidence. They are surrounded by children like them, which will make them feel happier when they understand things like this. They have the freedom and support to learn at their own pace. They have constant access to sensory rooms, soft play, outdoor learning and play and the strategies they need to learn are embedded into every part of the day. If a mainstream school did this, the school would be unsuitable for the other 28 kids in the class. Inclusion sounds lovely, but when it’s not possible without having a detrimental effect on all, what is the point?

OP, you should pursue the Tribunal route. The LA may mess you about as you do it but they can't hide forever.

You can insist your daughter goes in full time or the school exclude every day or half day she doesn't. If you don't want to do that you can email the school every time confirming that the school have not allowed her to attend because they cannot make adequate provision for her ( or whatever reason they are giving) and send it to the LA caseworker as well.

You can also start a complaint with LA about them failing in their duty to provide a full time education.

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion.

I can only assume you lack any direct experience of a child with complex needs and with called 'inclusion.' My severely learning disabled and autistic child spend primary as inclusion child in mainstream. My DC sat at a side table with 1:1 support. No friends, no peer group, kids from DC's class would change to the other side of the road when they saw as walking. Not one invite to a birthday party on 7 years of primary.

Now, in special secondary, DC is one among many like them, is happy, massive change in mental health and DC has finally made friends.

For many children, esp if they have complex needs, inclusion in mainstream only exists on name!

I wouldn't be able to afford legal representation but fortunately I am able to navigate the court system and focus on getting watertight assessments to go with instead.

I don't believe inclusion really does mean everyone doing the same. She can't manage it, we are trying to force her into something she just can't do and it is awful to see. Her 1-1 is a hero, compassionate, patient, intuitive, skilled in ASD. She can't change the environment :(

She goes to school and its effectively childcare. I'm so frustrated with the suggestion this will ever be good enough and meeting her needs. She isnt safe on site without at least 1-1, often 2-1, on one particularly horrendous incident she was 4-1.

Appealing these bullshit decisions is absolutely standard. If you give any hint to them that the school could have done more, then they will pressure the school to up their game instead of providing SEN provision.

You need to lawyer-up.

@Sendsystemsucks tbh if funds are tight and you don't qualify for legal aid spend on independent assessments Ed Psych as a priority. You can get support with the legal process through IPSEA and SOSSEN but it is sound assessments that will win you the place that your child needs at Tribunal.

@Sendsystemsucks

I wouldn't be able to afford legal representation but fortunately I am able to navigate the court system and focus on getting watertight assessments to go with instead.

I don't believe inclusion really does mean everyone doing the same. She can't manage it, we are trying to force her into something she just can't do and it is awful to see. Her 1-1 is a hero, compassionate, patient, intuitive, skilled in ASD. She can't change the environment :(

She goes to school and its effectively childcare. I'm so frustrated with the suggestion this will ever be good enough and meeting her needs. She isnt safe on site without at least 1-1, often 2-1, on one particularly horrendous incident she was 4-1.

You are right, on. a limited budget, to focus on watertight reports over legal representation.

As others have said IPSEA is an excellent resource , try to get one of their callback appointments.

Also the PP who mentioned failure to provide a full time education is right, you can put a complaint in about that. Compensation can be claimed from the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman for continued LA breaches in this regard. A number of years ago I successfully claimed some money for breaches in regards to my daughter which I then used to provide some educational support for her and to finance additional reports.

Actually I think that compensation only applies if out of education altogether for at least 15 days, so part time wouldn't qualify. Apologies for the error.

I couldn’t afford legal representation either but I did take the online IPSEA training (levels 1-3) which helped massively. Otherwise got advice from IPSEA and SENDIASS. The LA had a barrister and it was the best thing that could have happened - they looked ridiculous putting an unrepresented parent against a barrister when they had almost no case, and the judge made a fool of him. It was quite satisfying actually.

Sendsystemsucks - you have been given some great advice here - i work in a mainstream primary - we only have 84 pupils and have a lot of quirky individual pupils -parents travel up to 10 miles to come to our school.

If we feel the LA are not listening when we are trying to get an EhCp or that a child needs a Send school then we go down the exclusion route - this grabs their attention and once we explain to the parents why we are doing it - they are on board with it .

I also have 2 children with Sen - my Ds moved in yr4 as he wasn't even on P levels then with regards to his work.

My Dd wasn't even on anyone's radar till yr 8 and then missed the whole of yr9 due to exclusions -managed moves and then finally after much shouts and threats from me we got into her a v small school .

So basically get her back into school full time and accept all the exclusions because in the long term they will give you a Send school .

Which LA are you ?

I couldn't afford legal rep or Indi reports.

And IPSec couldn't really help because they said my case was really complex (it was due to stupid games) but wished luck.

I turned up alone, with only LA, nhs therapist and camhs reports. Against la rep and 3 school staff from 2 schools.
Having battled with SS and his school after attempted suicide for support. (None)
With a LADO investigation occurring which did have relevance to case but couldn't be discussed because it was ongoing.
And having found out days before my mum had an incurable type of cancer.

I spoke for about 15 minutes in the whole 4 hours.

I won

LAs try and tie you up in arguments that's are irrelevant to get you to say things like "school aren't doing enough" etc. Just disengage and focus on quoting CF Act and Sendcop.

My defining moment was after listening to LA rep saying school and responding "you've heard form them how amazing and qualified they are and their whole send offer - yet my son still ended up attempting suicide and being referred for cbt for school anxiety. So I don't understand why were all here discussing whether MS school can meet his needs without an EHCP."

The LA rep looked like she wanted to smack me in the mouth

Can the local special school give some out reach support to your school? There is a name for this? Email your SENCO and ask her - this at least gets the special school to know the name of your child.
Have you contacted the governors and asked for support in making the school do more to support your child? Has your school looked at every Avenue of funding available? These are all stepping stones to proving your child needs Special school.

I’m so sorry OP - this must be so hard - if your child is becoming aggressive is most likely because the environment isn’t suited to her.

She has had outreach from a local autism school and an additional behavioural specialist. She has absolutely maximum funding. The LA EP herself she can't identify anything further the school can do to meet her needs.

Just to make matters worse her social care assessment bounced back from their panel because they won't authorise respite until I have done another parenting course (will be my 5th in 5 years).

Frustrated. Have contacted contact re social care and trying to get an ipsea slot

@butmumineedit

Sendsystemsucks - you have been given some great advice here - i work in a mainstream primary - we only have 84 pupils and have a lot of quirky individual pupils -parents travel up to 10 miles to come to our school.

If we feel the LA are not listening when we are trying to get an EhCp or that a child needs a Send school then we go down the exclusion route - this grabs their attention and once we explain to the parents why we are doing it - they are on board with it .

I also have 2 children with Sen - my Ds moved in yr4 as he wasn't even on P levels then with regards to his work.

My Dd wasn't even on anyone's radar till yr 8 and then missed the whole of yr9 due to exclusions -managed moves and then finally after much shouts and threats from me we got into her a v small school .

So basically get her back into school full time and accept all the exclusions because in the long term they will give you a Send school .

Which LA are you ?

I agree with this advice. Right now they are informally excluding by forcing a part time timetable. Tell them she will be in full time and if they expect you to come collect her they will need to make it a formal exclusion every time with everything in writing as per the procedure with exclusions. This will then count as evidence that they cannot meet needs.

@Sendsystemsucks

She has had outreach from a local autism school and an additional behavioural specialist. She has absolutely maximum funding. The LA EP herself she can't identify anything further the school can do to meet her needs.

Just to make matters worse her social care assessment bounced back from their panel because they won't authorise respite until I have done another parenting course (will be my 5th in 5 years).

Frustrated. Have contacted contact re social care and trying to get an ipsea slot

Ask them in writing if this 5th parenting course is specifically aimed at parent with your dds needs?

And if they say no ask them outright how they are thinking a parenting course for parenting nt children will help you as an adult get respite from a disabled child!

OP - I’m so sorry - this must be so hard for you.

Its such a bloody nightmare.
Every child should have the RIGHT to a mainstream education, but that doesnt mean mainstream should be the only option. An appropriate education is the most important thing.
All 3 of my kids have sen, and one was ok in mainstream till secondary, but by year 8 id removed him while fighting for SEN placement.
The other two, SEN school would not be appropriate and I think theyre better in mainstream with support and adjustments.
It sounds like the adjustments your childs school are making, are about having him seperated, excluded and on a part time basis, which is the worst of both worlds.
Its actually traumatic what they put us and our children through, when holistic SEN education with the time and training to allow the child to meet their potential amongst actual peeds where they are not an outcast or pity case, gives best outcome.

Her caseworker asked the panel to reconsider and that has just returned a big fat no too. Appeal it is! Even her caseworker has said unofficially the issue is she is a hard (aka expensive) to place child.

I’ve only read it on here, but does your home insurance come with the ability to pay legal fees?

I've probably missed this but are you looking for a specialist ASD or general LD or what kind of school?