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AIBU?

Devastated DD denied special school

183 replies

Sendsystemsucks · 07/04/2021 21:54

Will be appealing, but just another fight to be had.

DD is primary age dx ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia and language disorder. On a part time timetable. When in school DD parallel learns and spends 70% of her school time with her 1-1 in the hallway on her own. She has been known to hit, kick, bite, throw chairs and run off.

Apparantly mainstream can meet her needs and she doesn't need special school.

AIBU to think she needs special school?

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Hcolhcsra · 07/04/2021 23:08

Friend's daughter is more or less non verbal. They've already held her back a year but she'll start in reception in Sept. Despite being only able to say a handful of words (and then you've got to know her) mainstream is apparently their only option. They've only managed to get full time TA with lots of arguing about medical needs. They think she'll cope in reception as its very play based but she won't be able to access much of the learning - fine motor skills etc also very underdeveloped. The system is awful. Instead of putting kids in the best place for them to begin with, it throws them in at the deep end for sink or swim which is incredibly cruel.

For those who say kids should be given a chance at mainstream as traffic is only one way, I once taught a quite exceptional young man who'd moved from special needs primary to mainstream before securing top grades at GCSE, studying a levels and going on to university. If the system works he shouldn't be an exception.

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10brokengreenbottles · 07/04/2021 23:14

As hard as it is for both you and DD, as Hired said, by putting an end to the part time timetables you build evidence. Also, the school may have been saying they can't meet DD's needs, but stopping the illegal exclusions is likely to make them more vocal and persistent in complaining to the LA.

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Gobbeldegook · 07/04/2021 23:42

You need to cite rights of the child to la and threaten legal action for disability discrimination. In writing. Seek legal advice. Children's network should be able to help. La is denying her a suitable education. Get written statements from schools saying they are unable to cope. A friend went through this, solicitors letter sorted it, they didn't actually have to go through with court.

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Sendsystemsucks · 07/04/2021 23:47

Thank you, will come back to the more recent posts in the morning.

The whole thing is just horribly unfair on children.

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Gobbeldegook · 07/04/2021 23:58
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Spikeyball · 08/04/2021 00:01

Have you looked at independent special schools? If you can find a suitable one with a space the LA may change their tune about LA special schools all being full.

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purplebagladylovesgin · 08/04/2021 00:10

Contact IPSEA, refresh to booking page throughout the day to get a slot.

Get the legal information you need from IPSEA and the guidance paperwork downloaded then challenge the LA directly.

Once they realise you mean business they will usually settle.
At the moment there is no money in the pot and for every week they can delay the appropriate provision for your daughter they are saving £££.

It's only when it starts to cost the £££ they will relent.

You need evidence to do this.

Log energy incident, every time your daughter can't be in class, why, how long, her feelings, her behaviour the surrounding triggers and how she feels afterwards. It's a lot of information but will gradually give you a fuller picture of evidence.

Having a child not cope and need to remain in the corridor with a 1:1 isn't an education. It's clearly the wrong setting.

This is all down to money. You have to prepare evidence for a tribunal where a judge will listen. It usually gets resolved before this as they bank on parents getting too stressed and pulling out.

Yes, it's a horrific system that not designed to help the child. It's designed to fail the child and patch the cracks until the LA can discharge their responsibilities.

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PastMyBestBeforeDate · 08/04/2021 00:20

The lack of places that are appropriate for children with additional needs is awful. An EHCP is a legal statement of need and yet so many children who hold one are left without the education they're entitled to.

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PhoenixIsFlying · 08/04/2021 00:41

Don’t agree to mediation. Say you want to go straight to tribunal. Gather your evidence, written records from your school saying they can’t meet your daughters needs and also the reply from the other mainstream. If the other school has said a flat no then why should your current school be able to. Sitting in a corridor is not inclusive. Also find a school that will be good for your daughter. Contact them and reference that in your evidence too. Good luck. It’s a terrible system. X

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Creamcustards · 08/04/2021 00:53

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties. Flowers

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eatsleepread · 08/04/2021 02:17

That is so, so rubbish OP. I'm really sorry SadThanks

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Spikeyball · 08/04/2021 06:46

"Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion."

A child should be in the place that is best for them and that they feel comfortable in and for some this isn't mainstream school.

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hiredandsqueak · 08/04/2021 07:09

@Creamcustards

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties. Flowers

But OP's child isn't experiencing inclusion, she's excluded from the classroom most of the time, she is excluded from the school because they only allow her there on a part time basis and she is excluded from peers and friendships and extra curricular opportunities because of all the other exclusions.
Inclusion when it works is a wonderful thing, my daughter's primary was the most inclusive school I have ever known and as a result had children there from across the County with many and varied levels of SEND and "no child was left behind" because they had a HT with vision and a mission.
BUT my daughter now attends an independent specialist school because even with support that I fought for and had tailored to her needs a mainstream secondary was not the right environment for her.
She is very happy in classes of five, studying the subjects she likes, having the therapies on offer and pursuing her own interests. No she won't leave with nine GCSEs but she will with 5 and a couple of A levels but most importantly she will leave wit er mental health and her self esteem intact.
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Foxhasbigsocks · 08/04/2021 07:16

@Creamcustards there is a real limit to what op or any parents can get a mainstream school to provide. Often 1:1 will be a TA who is parachuted in with almost no training in sn for example

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Bookworm19 · 08/04/2021 07:22

@Creamcustards
Do you have a child bwith additional needs?? Every single child has different and varying needs, it's not a one size fits all. My son has ASD and cannot cope with mainstream which is therefore having an impact on his learning. How is that beneficial for him just to be more 'inclusive'? His current school are brilliant for some SEN kids but it's not right for me son.

@Sendsystemsucks
Flowers
It does suck. The system is massively failing our children. I've had many a rants about this in the last few weeks. It does sound that your daughter needs specialist provisions. Definitely argue with the that part time is having a massive impact on her learning.
Keep going, keep fighting. You're doing the best thing for your daughter. Ask on the SEN board, get as much info as possible.
Can you contact your local NAS for any advice, or any AN/SEN Facebook groups? It's such a battle but keep at it Cake

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Spikeyball · 08/04/2021 07:27

Some children cannot cope in a mainstream environment. My own child could have 10:1 specially trained support but he still would find being in a class of 30 people (or even 15) incredibly distressing. And he would have nothing in common with them, no one to play with, no one to interact with. He would be permanently frightened.

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LadyOfLittleLeisure · 08/04/2021 07:35

@Viviennemary

Is home schooling her not a possibility if the main stream school isn't suitable.

Just a word of caution here. We deregistered our DS (from special school actually) after it made him miserable for many months. Home education was totally the right thing to do at the time but it is intense with high needs child and I am having an absolute nightmare trying to get him back into a school (ANY school at this rate) as you are sort of seen to have voluntarily dropped out of the system. You also get no funding or help unless you manage to secure EOTAS which is rare.
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jessycake · 08/04/2021 07:38

I think the schools are stuck in a system that can't work . It must be incredibly depressing and stressful for her one to one tutor as well as your daughter , stuck in a corridor without proper support . It comes down to money everytime and its very wrong x.

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LadyOfLittleLeisure · 08/04/2021 07:48

"School have said for 2 years now she needs specialist, the LA don't want to know. She hasn't accessed full time this school year", I know it's stressful but I have confidence you'd win your appeal as normally the school don't support parents this clearly. Ask the school to get an Educational Psychologist in as LAs tend to listen to them more. Start collecting everything in writing, all the emails about thrown chairs, wherever it's written that she is only on a 70% timetable etc. I'd like to believe your LA can't ultimately wriggle out of this one, they're probably playing the long game and hoping you'll drop out of appealing (like so many parents do). Wishing you the best of luck.

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OneInEight · 08/04/2021 07:48

What we did was ring up several mainstream schools, were brutally honest with ds's problems and unsurprisingly they said they could not meet needs. Faced with that the local authority could not argue that mainstreams were a suitable placement.

Do not feel pressurised to home educate unless you can get an EOTAS package in place. Don't know if you have any social services involvement with your family (disabilities team) as they were very helpful for us in supporting us to get the right placement for the ds's (special school for one and EOTAS for the other).

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LadyOfLittleLeisure · 08/04/2021 07:50

@hiredandsqueak

You can check if you qualify for Legal Aid here
You need to insist the school has her full time and they formally exclude her each time they can't manage her in school for a full day. These exclusions are evidence then that the school can't meet needs.

This is good advice
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Sendsystemsucks · 08/04/2021 07:55

@hiredandsqueak thank you, it looks like we will so that could be a huge help.

@10brokengreenbottles thank you, will get more forceful with the school about having her full time.

@spikeyball there are a few independent special school provisions once she hits secondary age but none for primary. My DD also sounds similar to yours in that it doesn't matter how much funding nor staffing she just can't manage the noise and busy-ness and lack of predictability of mainstream.

@Hcolhcsra that is awful, poor child :(

@purplebagladylovesgin thank you

@creamcustards she just can not cope with it. I don't know what else is left to try that could keep her in mainstream. I would give anything to make her manage but reality is she can't so for now she is stuck on her own :(

@LadyOfLittleLeisure this is my fear and why I haven't so far, I'm not sure it is feasible for us as a family to manage home schooling her, she is really intense.

@bookworm19 thank you, hadn't thought of NAS, we also have a local autism charity who I will contact too.

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Sendsystemsucks · 08/04/2021 08:00

@LadyOfLittleLeisure the LA EP even wrote in her most recent update that the most critical barrier to DD accessing school is the class size, somehow the LA have overruled her and said the school should pull 5 or 6 children out to be taught as a group with DD. I think quite rightly the school aren't prepared to take 6 children who don't need to be out of their class.

@oneineight I am definitely going to preempt that they will try and pressure other mainstreams to take her as soon as they reopen. Our LA have recently been found to not be submitting the full information about children (not mine) when consulting with schools or omitting bits from the plans to suit individual schools and when the schools have found out it has caused them to be left with children who have started whose needs are impossible for them to meet. It is horrendous.

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hiredandsqueak · 08/04/2021 08:04

@sendsystemsucks if you qualify for Legal Aid not only will you have legal support in building a case for Tribunal they will also commission independent assessments by SALT OT and Ed Psych their reports will point you to the school and the support that your child needs. Get onto the process ASAP in my experience LA's only start listening once the appeal is in anyway as it signals intent. You might not even end up at Tribunal a lot of LA's concede before then. Make sure you also look at all the independent specialist schools as well you will find it a whole new world.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 08/04/2021 08:07

@Creamcustards

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties. Flowers

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

That's all lovely fluffy unicorns and pink cloud thinking. The reality of your passionate advocation of inclusivity at all costs is easily seen and is probably negative for many:

  • mainstream kids get their education disrupted. Even in the best managed and supported of classrooms there is always some disruption as the TA / teacher accommodates the very reasons the child with additional needs is there. No matter how low level, it is a disruption


  • the kid with additional needs doesn't get a nurturing environment as they are always being held to the pace of the mainstream session, being 'managed' in some way, not having their individual needs met because the classrom is not set up for them and their specific needs.


Adequate support is not enough in this situation. Never has been, for many kids with SEN. It often means "keep them calm and quiet, we won't expect them to progress"! They really don't need to be integrated into a space they don't fit. They need to get the best education they can in a space that is physically and psychologically best for them. Sometimes that is in a separate school, sometimes a separate teaching space. Sometimes, in the best of systems, it might change over time and will repsond to specific needs.

Once, in the 70s my DM worked in school that was next door to a mainstream school. Their older students who wanted to/were able to went next door for some lessons. Lots of paperwork required, doubtless whole tranches more these days, but it seemed to work. But that isn't available to all. It should be!

Apologies if any of that was worded in a clumsy manner and pisses anyone off. I have worked in many classrooms where a student with SEN has been let down by the system, reducing the quality of the lesson as a whole for everyone. It is VERY hard to get the balance right and you, as a teacher, are always left with the sinking feeling that someone in that room did not get the best session they could have. And there is nothing you can do because someone uses the fact that everyone stayed in their seats, did not protest, as proof of their SEN programme being a success!
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