Devastated DD denied special school

[Sendsystemsucks]

Will be appealing, but just another fight to be had.

DD is primary age dx ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia and language disorder. On a part time timetable. When in school DD parallel learns and spends 70% of her school time with her 1-1 in the hallway on her own. She has been known to hit, kick, bite, throw chairs and run off.

Apparantly mainstream can meet her needs and she doesn't need special school.

AIBU to think she needs special school?

It would save a heck of a lot of money and long term trauma if school DID put things in place early enough. And not just give up on teaching children as our DS first school did (ah he must have a learning disability because our methods aren't working).

@drspouse

It would save a heck of a lot of money and long term trauma if school DID put things in place early enough. And not just give up on teaching children as our DS first school did (ah he must have a learning disability because our methods aren't working).

Totally agree unfortunately local authority policies do not.

Some schools are better at this than others, no doubt, but my children were both completely failed.

@Creamcustards

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties.

@Creamcustards Just because you don't like special schools doesn't mean that they aren't suitable for children.

Some children need a specialist school as they simply cannot cope or thrive in mainstream schools. I've worked with children that have gone on to special schools and thrive and are happy. They are like different children, to when they were in mainstream. For some, being in a mainstream school is detrimental to their wellbeing and mental health.

OP, contact IPSEA, they should be able to advise and hopefully offer some help.

I've put my tribunal papers in this week my ds needs a special school too the special school said they could meet need the mainstream said they couldn't the panel still said no to special school 🙄 so im challenging it

@Drspouse I think that generic special schools aren't specialist schools by the dint that they have children with many and varied needs and disabilities and as such don't offer specialist provision to any of their pupils and as such can be just as wrong for some children as mainstream can be.
My son attended an autism base attached to a mainstream secondary. I will say that as support goes the base and their staff were exceptional and from what I hear are still exceptional but I'd also argue that in many ways a base is the worst of both worlds as well. My son moved to independent specialist eventually.
The base are somewhat restricted in what they can offer as they are bound by the constraints of a mainstream curricculum so real and worthy life skills and independence training simply doesn't have timetable space.
To access subject specialist teaching the child needs to move with support into the mainstream school (some bases have requirements as to how much time children are allowed in the base) The base doesn't remove all the challenges of a mainstream school that a child might be known to be unable to manage as outside the base it's still a mainstream school.
Before he left ds spent all of his time in the base which meant he was taught wholly by TA's which is less than ideal and no different, if I'm honest, to being sat in a corridor outside any mainstream school. His transformation once in specialist was incredible.

OP The fact that she is not able to go in full time makes it pretty clear that they are not able to meet her needs! I would not be worrying about the appeal as it sounds even from just that part that you have a strong case. I have done three tribunals; it isn't easy but if you have a good case then you have nothing to fear. I would use the time to really investigate all the special schools and choose the one you really want.

drspouse that's sensible reasoning and very different from the parents I mentioned above, whose thinking (as it was reported to me) was basically "you haven't solved all my child's problems so I'm trying somewhere else!" And they were right in a way, because if the HT had been more open to different techniques, maybe the child would have been more manageable and settled.

There is a kind of parent (I doubt if any of them post here) who seem to think that school should be solving all their child's problems and sending them home "cured." A long time ago I came across one of these who would write things in their child's communication book like "can you have a word with him, he misbehaved in the supermarket at the weekend" - as if they should not be expected to take any responsibility at all. I do understand that these parents (who are typically not very educated themselves) are probably at the end of their tether and could do with some direct support themselves, but it can be frustrating when the school gets the blame for everything. And yet these are often the same people who hate the idea of a specialist school on principle, as if they think they will be judged for having a child in one (or perhaps sometimes just because they aren't really equipped to take on that fight).

@hiredandsqueak we have a reasonable option for secondary available but for primary the only non generic specialist schools would just traumatise DS further without giving him what he needs.
My understanding is that the primary bases are supposed to have their own teacher, rather than just TAs, but it is easier to be a generalist at primary too.

The system is a disgrace. The fight for parents with SN children (I am one) is exhausting and often fruitless. I personally have found secondary school much more supportive than primary.

The system is awful. Too few sen schools and those that are there take a range of needs. The government wanting inclusion and shutting specialist schools has backfired.

I have two dc with SEN. One is in mainstream but will be going to a specialist secondary in September. The youngest did a year at mainstream was horribly discriminated against and we took the school to court over it. Part time timetables are illegal. Our solicitor said we need to refuse to sign anything regarding it. I would also be asking for written documents as to why she’s being sent home everyday. Because this is your evidence. If she’s over 5, it’s an illegal exclusion. Have you identified a school you’d like her to attend? I’d call an emergency review and request a placement change. Get a good advocate. Mainstream does not work for all. For my youngest it caused a lot of trauma because the staff deliberately excluded her. But your dd isn’t accessing any curriculum. You have parental right to chose. The only way the LA can refuse is on the following grounds:

The local authority must comply with your preference and name the school or college in the EHC plan unless:

• it would be unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or SEN of the child or young person,
• or the attendance of the child or young person there would be incompatible with the efficient education of others or
• it would be an inefficient use of resources.

It’s a horribly bloody fight. Not enough money, training or specialist schools and it’s appalling.

@drspouse yes it's probably dependent on LA's as well. Bases in our LA are staffed by TA's (primary and secondary) although the head of ds's was a qualified teacher but in a TA role. That said our LA is on the top three list of worst LA's in England so to be expected I suppose.
@vanillaandorange and I have experienced exactly the same from schools. I'm really happy to work with schools and give them the benefit of my knowledge and experience but fgs when you have a ft TA working 1 to 1 with my child don't contact me and tell me what he's done wrong when the TA has taken her eye off the ball or the teacher has sent the TA off to do photocopying and expect me to be sympathetic, understanding or want to solve it for you.

What makes me sick about it all is that the system relies on parents hiring expensive solicitors to enforce their children's legal right to an appropriate education.

Rather than doing what is the legal requirement LAs actively spend money on Tribunals which they are going to lose.

The motivation for this, well some parents (often the ones who can't afford solicitors fees) are forced to give up, withdraw their kids from the school system or keep them in unsuitable settings.

It is wrong. Councils should be named and shamed for this. Children with additional needs are often (not always) also more challenging at home, this is an additional burden on already exhausted parents.

As a wealthy nation we ought to be ashamed of letting children down like this. It's so short sighted. Give children the tools they need to succeed in childhood and they are less likely to rely on the state as adults.

GRRRRR. Rant over.

As a mainstream teacher I hate this system. It ruins the educational experience of the most vulnerable children. I've taught so many children who's needs I can't meet while trying to teach over 30 other kids. I'm in secondary and I once taught a child who couldn't even write her own name. I didn't know where to even start to meet her needs when teaching science

Looking at her needs it would be a private specialist school which costs ££££,which is why the LEA will be reluctant to pay ,but she is entitled to a full time school place ,and if no school in the LEA can meet her needs they are obliged to look outside of borough ,tbh you need proper advice about this do you have an independent advisory service on your LEA ? Have a look on your councils local ( SEND) offer for details .

@lifeturnsonadime that’s another really good point. The cost of a solicitor is horrendous. Advocates are cheaper but really you’re having to pay to hold the LA accountable for their legal obligations. It’s disgusting. Some parents just don’t have that kind of money.

@Creamcustards

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties.

That's lovely ,however how do you think a mainstream could meet my non verbal nearly elevan year old, who has severe autism and learning disabilities, challenging behaviour ,only just out of nappies ,you haven't a clue 🙄

Honestly, I would love for meaningful inclusion to exist here and wasted the best part of what should have been my son’s reception year trying to achieve that. I came to the painful conclusion that it doesn’t exist for children with moderate to severe ASD. At least not in my LA.

I’m not willing or strong enough to spend my whole life trying to make a system work that’s not set up to work. It would destroy me and it wouldn’t give my son the help he needs right now.

I have a friend who is a militant version of custard. She abhors anyone who makes a practical decision for their children. I don’t think parents should have to take the responsibility for all future SEN kids on top of their own daily battles. It’s hard enough as it is.

Well clearly a lot of prople disagree with me and that’s fine. I don’t think I have been ignorant or judgemental at all, although you were rather judgemental of me @Pinkyavocado

What is it exactly that makes “mainstream schools” universally so very unsuitable for children with SEND?

We all have an idea of what a “mainstream school” is, most of our children attend one, and yet I guarantee each and every one of them is totally different.

I believe there is nothing fundamental about a mainstream school that means that children with SEND can’t attend, it’s just the way resources are allocated.

We no longer segregate people with learning disabilities (or mental health conditions) in secure homes and hospitals like we used to in the early and mid 20th Century. It is their human right to be included in society, we have a hell of a long way to go, but we are (slowly) becoming more inclusive and accepting of neurodiversity in this country.

“Mainstream” is just placeholder for “normal”. I know it’s controversial but this is AIBU so I’m airing my view that special schools are segregatory. Children are sent there with the very best of intentions and in many cases the children ARE happier and better educated there, but this is only because “mainstream schools” are often exclusionary (I say often because I have seen some fabulously inclusive ones, which is how I know it’s possible) and the practice of funneling resources to specialist provision is only making them more so.

The situation is highly unsatisfactory and I agree the system is broken. Parents are having to fight to get their children’s needs met. But whatever your child needs, be it specialist equipment, a smaller class, a quiet space, why not campaign for that to be made available in their “mainstream” school, as it should be?

Funding schmunding. If this pandemic has tought us anything it’s that there IS a f*cking magic money tree. It’s a question of whose needs and voices and interests get listened to and prioritised.

Children with SEND do not have strong voices, we have to advocate for them, and I will not accept the narrative that “everybody is disrupted” when children with SEND are educated alongside their peers.

They can be, and they should be, all that’s needed is proper resourcing.

The LA seem like the enemy, but as I said to the OP, my energy would be spent lobbying the local MP and launching a MASSIVE fundraising / publicity campaign to support my under-resourced local mainstream school.

Have you ever actually been to a special school @Creamcustards?some children with SEN manage very well with the right support in a mainstream school,however like all children they are very individual,there is no way a mainstream school could meet my son's needs ,he's currently in a class of seven pupils with 1 teacher and 3 TA,s and he still has 1:1 support ,he gets far more education where he is than being stuck in a class of 30 pupils ,it wouldn't be fair on the mainstream pupils ,and it sure as hell wouldn't be fair on my son .

@Creamcustards you say that special schools are segregating children, but do you not consider that the needs of the child are more important? Some children simply need to be in a specialist provision otherwise they are actually segregated from others in a mainstream school and have no peer of friendship group. Especially in secondary schools, many children have absolutely no friends as it's not "cool" for the other children to care for them and look after them as they did in primary.
Also, as a child gets older, their dignity needs to be respected and it's very difficult to do this in a mainstream setting.

Yes, in an ideal world all children would be able to be educated together and everything will be sunshine and rainbows. But in the real world it's just not possible. Teachers, SNAs and TAs in mainstream have little to no training in SEN. Even with unlimited budgets you can not teach an autistic child (as an example) with various other needs, or a child who is severely disabled with their mainstream peers. They will be receiving little to no education and it will not be tailored to their needs.

And as my child doesn't have a voice I am his voice I don't want him being educated in a mainstream school ,his disabilities are significant at his school he's accepted for who he is he wouldn't be in a mainstream,.

Well @Creamcustards all the lobbying and fund raising in the world wouldn't make our local mainstream secondary right for my dd. God knows I tried but the experience broke he and nearly killed me.
She is now very happy in independent specialist. To compare MS 2100 pupils Is 30 pupils, class size MS 30 plus IS 5 max. IS SALT, OT, psychotherapist, psychologist, art and music therapy in school every day and standard provision MS you had to fight to get the Ed Psych in OT was outsourced to Autism Outreach (not even qualified OTs) SALT you paid privately for, no therapies in school you pay privately.
You would need an awful lot of fundraising to get an iota of the provision into mainstream and all that provision impinges on the national curriuculum that's why dd will do five GCSEs in IS instead of 11 in MS to allow time for therapies and non exam studies that she wants to pursue.

Many children with SEND successfully attend mainstream. Many more could successfully attend mainstream with the right support at the right time and its essential to fight for those childrens rights too. I spend a lot of time supporting and advocating for those children
For others the environment is so fundamentally wrong for them, that in order to make mainstream suitable we would have to rethink the entire nature of mainstream schooling. Obviously this is possible, humans can re-invent anything but in making it more suitable for my child it might become less suitable for another 20.

Don't ever forget that we were sold inclusion on ideological grounds but it is really just a cost cutting exercise.

Ideology doesn't make mainstream right for every child.

Suggesting that parents of SEN children want their children segregated from the 'normal' - the language you have used for mainstream is naive to say the least and pretty offensive.

And that's the thing if my child was made to attend a mainstream school ( God knows how) he would very much stand out ,he shouts ,he spins he sometimes takes his trousers down to have a wee in the playground,he does a great many things that would make kids stop and stare ,at his special school it's not out of the ordinary and he's accepted in his community ,in a mainstream he would be singled out and with the best will in the world sometimes kids can be cruel,I don't want that for him and it's not inclusive in anyway