Devastated DD denied special school

[Sendsystemsucks]

Will be appealing, but just another fight to be had.

DD is primary age dx ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia and language disorder. On a part time timetable. When in school DD parallel learns and spends 70% of her school time with her 1-1 in the hallway on her own. She has been known to hit, kick, bite, throw chairs and run off.

Apparantly mainstream can meet her needs and she doesn't need special school.

AIBU to think she needs special school?

@lifeturnsonadime

Don't ever forget that we were sold inclusion on ideological grounds but it is really just a cost cutting exercise.

Ideology doesn't make mainstream right for every child.

Suggesting that parents of SEN children want their children segregated from the 'normal' - the language you have used for mainstream is naive to say the least and pretty offensive.

100%

haven't read it all OP so may just repeating stuff: do you get exclusion paperwork everytime you get her early? If not, force their hand and only collect her if they provide the correct paperwork. Without ppwk it is an illegal exclusion. Use the ppwk as evidence in appeal. Good luck.

it must be so frustrating and demoralising for you, I hope you have the strength to continue to fight for the best for your child.

[quote hiredandsqueak]@itsgettingweird we had the same only it was even worse the school couldn't give any detail as to how just assurances that they could. Dd's EHCP was going to come with £49k funding so I think they had their eyes on the money rather than giving any thought to my dd's needs in all of this. I'm not sure the school had much say my solicitor said that they would have been pressured to say yes but I held them as responsible as the LA in delaying my daughter's entry into independent specialist so pressed a formal complaint that will be used as basis of next Ofsted inspection as it raised serious concerns about leadership and management as well as getting an LGO ruling and compensation from LA. I like to think that both school and LA got the message I was annoyed [/quote]
I also did the Ofsted complaint which will also brung up leadership and safeguarding policy concerns at next inspection.
I don't find it too odd that the academic year that's due to Comecon 3 out of the 4 staff involved suddenly moved on
And the one who didn't is support not leadership.

The LA seem like the enemy, but as I said to the OP, my energy would be spent lobbying the local MP

Been there, done that, still couldn't make mainstream high school appropriate for my extremely bright autistic son.

Still was trying to kill himself and running away from the place that made him feel unsafe.

4 years later still lobbying, still no school he is still recovering from the trauma and is now likely to be on a lifetime of anti depressants due to being made to attend mainstream because the policy of inclusion means that there are no schools to meet his needs.

And I have a daughter with complex needs, same story only I pulled her out BEFORE the breakdown. She has added physical needs and dyslexia. No amount of lobbying will make mainstream a safe environment for her.

Our children have the right to be safe and by law to have an appropriate education. One size does not fit all.

@itsgettingweird it's all smoke and mirrors at the school I pressed a complaint against, they peddle the myth of outstanding Ofsted which was attained by a different HT and leadership team. Their inspection is overdue thanks to Corona but have every reason to expect they will be judged inadequate when it eventually happens.

@drspouse

Mainstream schools COULD have the specialist services that a child in that school needs (my son doesn't need a hoist, any of the mobility aids, an OT comes in for him, every school should be physically accessible unless you think a bright child in a wheelchair should be in specialist school). Mainstream schools should not be loud and overwhelming, again unless you are proposing that all deaf children and those with even mild sensory needs should be in specialist settings. The main needs he has which we are working on is an experienced TA (no locks on the doors preventing a mainstream school employing these) and small/reduced class size (some mainstream schools have these and those with a resource base will have that option whenever the child needs). My LEA operates on a model of dump all children with SEN in the same generic specialist school which is equally wrong. A child who is 2 years behind the NC will not be alone at their academic level in a mainstream school. Why isn't she being taught in a small group with others at her level for part of the time?

Well yes. MS school is suitable for some pupils will SEND. My ds attended one with ehcp.

But they can't provide what all children with SEND need.

Some schools buildings aren't suitable for HI children and so they attend the nearest MS school with the right building that can if they are able to access a MS education.

Not all pupils in a wheelchair attend special schools either. But again - they attend the nearest MS which is adapted and accessible for their education if MS is suitable for their academic needs.

Some children do have such severe needs that they do need a separate and specialist environment. It's actually not inclusive to stick a child in an environment where they are educated alone or away from class for most of their days and have no peer group. They are just excluded with Ms school in the name of a misinterpretation of inclusion.

I teach non verbal pupils in KS4 and some cannot count to 3, recognise letters or even their own name. They flourish in our school because its curriculum and system and classrooms are designed to teach them age appropriate and ability appropriate skills.
They would get nothing out of MS school. It's not an environment designed to meet their needs.

And it's the same system as accessing things in adulthood. Some adults love a night out in a busy nightclub with music blaring and people packed in like sardines (pre covid!). Some don't and so there is quiet pubs available for people to attend. No one suggests that both parties with differing needs expect ALL public houses to provide something for everyone.

I’m sorry if you are offended @lifeturnsonadime, it’s not my intention to judge or criticise anyone. I’m just sharing my point of view, which I admit is ideological. I’m not actually naive about these issues, and I agree with you that it is far too common for people in leadership positions to pay lipservice to inclusion and then use the argument to cut costs. But it shouldn’t be that way should it? They may use the word inclusion, but they’re not practising it. This doesn’t mean inclusion doesn’t work, it’s just that it is not being allowed to be implemented.

It’s the same strategy as defunding the NHS and then claiming that it doesn’t work so it should be done away with.

I hate to bring politics into it, but all these decisions are political, in the end.

@Theunamedcat

I've put my tribunal papers in this week my ds needs a special school too the special school said they could meet need the mainstream said they couldn't the panel still said no to special school 🙄 so im challenging it

Have you done a SAR to school and la for these documents to prove it?

[quote MSQuinn]@lifeturnsonadime that’s another really good point. The cost of a solicitor is horrendous. Advocates are cheaper but really you’re having to pay to hold the LA accountable for their legal obligations. It’s disgusting. Some parents just don’t have that kind of money.[/quote]
The LGO basically told me this.

You have to go to court to hold people account to the law - that's the system we have in this county re laws (eg criminals aren't guilty until found so in a court of law).

I pointed out in those cases it was paid for by taxpayers (police, CPS etc) and in the case of having to use tribunal to hold LAs account it parents who are often low income as one parent can't work due to being at home and caring for the child - having to pay privately for this.

@lifeturnsonadime

Don't ever forget that we were sold inclusion on ideological grounds but it is really just a cost cutting exercise.

Ideology doesn't make mainstream right for every child.

Suggesting that parents of SEN children want their children segregated from the 'normal' - the language you have used for mainstream is naive to say the least and pretty offensive.

Totally agree

@Creamcustards

I’m sorry if you are offended *@lifeturnsonadime*, it’s not my intention to judge or criticise anyone. I’m just sharing my point of view, which I admit is ideological. I’m not actually naive about these issues, and I agree with you that it is far too common for people in leadership positions to pay lipservice to inclusion and then use the argument to cut costs. But it shouldn’t be that way should it? They may use the word inclusion, but they’re not practising it. This doesn’t mean inclusion doesn’t work, it’s just that it is not being allowed to be implemented.

It’s the same strategy as defunding the NHS and then claiming that it doesn’t work so it should be done away with.

I hate to bring politics into it, but all these decisions are political, in the end.

Until you have walked a day in another persons shoes you should not judge them.

So many people on here are telling you why inclusion doesn't work.

You have used offensive language implying that children who don't go to mainstream are not 'normal' - whatever that is!

No amount of money, lobbying, pleading, bloodshed would make mainstream right for my extremely bright (assessed top 3% cognitively) autistic child, or my less bright learning disabled autistic daughter. Their needs are too complex.

Both of my children look and behave, on the face of it, as though they would cope in mainstream school. I am sick to the teeth of judgement from people who know nothing about the struggles parents, and children, go through in the name of SEN education policies.

Politics has everything and nothing to do with it. There is a legal right to an appropriate education in this country no matter the spin politicians put on it. I had an excellent Tory MP who was really supportive until the last election now the new Tory MP couldn't care less.

Yanbu- mainstream is plainly not meeting her needs, particularly socially and emotionally.

@creamcustards

Of course some children with SEN can access appropriate education in mainstream. My own son is an adult at college now. He’s severely autistic, non verbal, severe challenging behaviour and epileptic. He attended mainstream infants but it got too much in year 3.

He needs/gets 2 hours of Occupational Therapy a week, 2 hours of SALT with a qualified SALT a week, an hour of music therapy etc etc etc. He wouldn’t cope with lots of noise or lots of other people. He runs and shouts and hits out at others. He Needs a very secure environment, basically no possible way to get out and 2:1 support at all times. He cannot be left alone. No mainstream school, unless they had a whole separate building, could accommodate this. The other 50 or so young people in his college have similar needs.

My daughter also has SEN. She copes absolutely fine, with extra support in a mainstream setting.

Having SEN isn’t always about being a bit behind or having a few sensory issues. Some kids/young people have very complex needs. Mainstream wouldn’t be safe for them or their peers.

I

The LA seem like the enemy, but as I said to the OP, my energy would be spent lobbying the local MP

Did that. She ignored me.
She ignored me in twin when she stopped to ask me for my valet and I asked what's she going to do about it and why she didn't reply when I begged for help.
If she took her head out of Boris arse for 30 seconds she'd see what's really going on in all her constituents lives- not just the MC ones who guarantee her safe seat.

@itsgettingweird our LA use barristers against unrepresented parents at Tribunal and still lose almost 99% of cases. But keeping a child out of school for months on end saves them the cost of making any provision and so Barrister costs are seen as a saving. They don't mind losing so much when they have saved what could be £100k if a parent wants independent specialist by forcing parents into appeal because parents also have to fight to get them to make any provision at all in the meantime whilst waiting for Tribunal as they routinely ignore that obligation as well.

Appeal @Sendsystemsucks it's awful they expect her to be so isolated and not be in an environment that meets her needs.

You are not being unreasonable. Complain and appeal. Get people like Dr's and therapists to write support letters.

Good luck.

Cream the thing is inclusion does work. But people misinterpret inclusion as meaning all in one place.

Inclusion is making sure someone can be included where possible by making adjustments.

Sometimes that is inclusion within a specialist setting because it's the best environment for the pupil.

Your ideaology would actually exclude many send pupils further. If they are the only year 10 in there catchment area with severe needs they attend MS school and be educated alone rather than a special school and educated alongside peers from a larger geographical area.

Head down, appeal, fight to the end. Went through this with my twins last year, went all the way to hearings for them both and the LA conceded halfway through the second day. I pretty much had a breakdown between the tribunals and lockdown.

They are now in an ideal specialist setting and absolutely thriving. It’s worth every second of the fight, don’t give up.

We need specialist sen schools that specialise in different things sld, mld, severe dyslexia, speech and language, asd etc. In ideal world we would have more inclusive mainstream too but we would need class sizes of max 10 to 15 with extra teaching assistants in each class - ain't going to happen.

@Creamcustards

Honestly, I am anti special schools. All children are members of society, speaking personally I am a passionate advocate of inclusion. I would direct your energy and love for your child towards making sure she (and all who come after her) gets adequate support within her mainstream school alongside all other children her age, rather than being segregated for her difficulties.

And all children deserve to be in an environment that suits them. Do you honestly think my barely continent, severely speech disordered, very autistic 14 year old who is still working his way through the early years curriculum would thrive in a mainstream secondary school? For a, start, they'd need to completely secure the site so he couldn't escape. Academically, he would be completely lost. Socially, he would be extremely isolated and the best relationship he could hope for with other kids would be as someone's pet.

So, he's in a special secondary school. He's not even in mainstream classes in the special school, he's in a specialised class of 7 with his peers rather than kids chronologically the same age and that's it, currently bubbled with 3 similar classes, loads of support, classroom environment secure and appropriate, experienced teachers and HLTAs, appropriate toileting and changing facilities that afford him his dignity, hydrotherapy, rebound therapy TACPAC and other therapeutic things that no mainstream school can provide. He is 100% included and loves it there.

Same for my boy he moves from his special primary school to special high school in September ,everything is designed around the pupils needs as it should be .

Go onto the IPSEA website and book a 1:1 advice session - use it to plan a way forward. SENDIAS are funded by the local authority and the quality of the advice is really variable. I would also look at the shorter term (getting your daughter to the summer and then into next year). Have you had your annual review? Again, ask IPSEA where you stand legally - she shouldn't be in the corridor, she shouldn't be on half days and she shouldn't be sent home early - she is being illegally excluded. I would start writing some letters to the Governors and local authority - letters/emails are much better than phone calls as you have an ongoing record. It is going to be a very long fight so you need her in a better place within the mainstream setting whilst you fight for her. If they are insisting on mainstream then the school needs to work harder.

"And all children deserve to be in an environment that suits them. Do you honestly think my barely continent, severely speech disordered, very autistic 14 year old who is still working his way through the early years curriculum would thrive in a mainstream secondary school?"

It's the same with my 15 year old. Even taking out the education side, he would be really frightened in a school full of NT teenagers. Also at his special school he has the sorts of freedom and independence he can never have in a mainstream school or any other non specialist environment where he cannot move without someone being attached to him.

I find mainstream massively rigid. Plus I can’t imagine there are loads of classes of just 9 other kids. I work with trainee teachers and from September to June (their course), they have 9 hours of general Sen training. The curriculum just doesn’t take into account learning differences. How can a teacher in a class of typically 30 differentiate learning so much.

My youngest is non verbal. We tried mainstream. Aside from the fact the school were total and utter arseholes in how they treated her, traditional learning didn’t work for her. Shoving a square peg into a round hole often does nothing but break the peg.