Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

@ToughLoveLDN

Everyone is so quick to blame the breed. But it’s not the dogs breed that’s the issue it’s the societal view of those kind of dogs.

Bully breeds are extremely strong and extremely loyal which can make them dangerous if they are in the wrong hands just like any breed of dog. The issue isn’t the dog itself but that the types of people that want these dogs do so because they see it as a status symbol, not because they love the animal or the breed. They also generally won’t have any control over the dog so then bad things happen gaining these dogs a negative rep. But it’s not the dogs fault it’s bad owners. A bully breeds bite is going to do a lot more damage than a Jack Russell but they are well known to be aggressive.

Agree - lots of stereotyping.

I walk my dog where there is a young man in a hoodie with his American bully, who is off lead in the park. I think a lot of posters on this thread would be swerving him?

The dog is an utter sweetie, he chose that type because they're known for being utter softies (gentle, kind, good with children, but can send them flying as they don't know their own size/strength). Beautifully behaved, good with other dogs, good with people. Just as properly socialised bull types are (staffies are sweeties too)

So the my question remains why do we as a society tolerate a small group of toxic people who turn their dogs vicious?

It's not a given than even the big bull-types will be like that if their nature, and before they became popular, it was dobermans and rotties, and before that German shepherds. Any dog (except perhaps toy breeds/lapdogs) can be made dangerously vicious. Banning by breed isn't particularly effective, but even if it were, there are plenty of other breeds that someone who wants a vicious dog will be able to train that way.

When you get a puppy, there is a lot of talk about the need to socialise it well when still very young (a good puppyhood setting so much of the dogs future nature). Should there be a conversation about how we socialise children? Starting young, of course.

(Also relevant to toxic masculinity in schools)

I have two giant dogs. They are well trained. I am responsible. Only off lead in safe places.

This attack is beyond awful. Totally horrific. The problem is irresponsible owners. Not all owners.

I think training classes should be mandatory for all new dog owners, for socialisation purposes as well as training.

There are no such things as bad dogs, only bad owners. Some breeds are more dangerous than others because of their size and strength, but they're not inherently bad.

Our little fella lived 14 years and never once bit anyone, even when having something painful done such as removing thorns from his pads. I miss him every single day.

Yes we should have tighter rules. Also there should be limits on the numbers of cats and dogs in densely populated urban areas.

@Poorlykitten

I think the entitlement of some dog owners is frankly unbelievable. There’s was a thread on here about some sheep getting worried and all a huge percentage of the dog owners were all ‘ but it won’t stop me going in to livestock fields because that’s my right’ Well, actually it isn’t your right to do that unless the dog is under very strict control’ If tighter restrictions on dog ownership mean less possibility of atrocities like this happening then I don’t understand why you would not be all for it.

There's a beautiful field near here, although it's private land there had always been an agreement that people could use it for walking etc, which was much appreciated. Due to many incidents of dogs off of leads, it's now locked up as is the farmers right as there's no public right of way or anything through it; but a shame for the community when it was just some arrogant dog owners who didn't heed the numerous warnings.

Yanbu animals capable of killing humans need strict ownership controls!

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Every death is tragic.

There are 5.5 million dogs in the UK, and they kill 3-5 people per year. The risk of being killed by a dog are only marginally higher than being killed by lightning (2 per year).

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-attacks-kids-surge-1700-23010893

This ^^ implies the figure is higher the only official figures i found was that in 2017 there were 25 deaths in the year

Our puppy was attacked by our neighbour's dog last year and it also bit my husband. Other neighbours informed me the dog had attacked two other dogs previously yet the owner still kept the dog. We reported it to the police, they spoke to her and she had to sign a form agreeing to keep the dog muzzled in public, that was it. The police officer told me some dogs just don't like other dogs, it was a joke. Seems the previous attacks were not reported, if they had been maybe the police would have done more. It was horrible knowing there was a dangerous dog two doors away and feeling paranoid that it was going to go for our dog again.

There are no such things as bad dogs, only bad owners. Some breeds are more dangerous than others because of their size and strength, but they're not inherently bad

100% and anyone with any intelligence knows that.

I'm really sorry you lost your Dog @Arbadacarba

[quote fairydustandpixies]@tored I have a staffie cross and have been approached by many people asking if he is a pit bull. I've had people cross the road to avoid him. Yes, he looks tough (and I can assure you that my arse is fully covered at all times) but he has been beaten up by cats, a swan and two chihuahuas. Each time he has yelped and tried to escape by hiding behind me! When DS was 18 months old my exH had a lurcher that he used to take to work with him. One day he came home and the dog launched himself at DS and bit his face. I insisted that dog was put down the same evening. No animal can be trusted but don't assume they are all viscous from the way they look. A school friend had her shihzu put down because it attacked a child.[/quote]
You witnessed your baby being attacked by a dog and still you think owning a dog is a good idea? This is astounding. Why is the need to own a dog more important than the safety of yours and others children?

Thank you @Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel.

This is such a horrific, tragic case. People need to be encouraged to report dangerous or out of control dogs.

I bet those who knew the owner of these dogs knew they were out of control. There's an culture of 'mind your own business' when it comes to stuff like this. We see it on mn all the time you're accused of being a curtain twitcher if you have serious concerns about neighbours.

Why a marksman didn't shoot them dead as quickly as possible, as is usually the case, I don't know, but the dogs were somehow tranquilized and are still alive

Probably didn’t want to risk shooting the poor lady by accident. I’m sure the dogs have since been shot, although sometimes the police keep them to try and discover if they react to a trigger word eg trained attack dog or part of an underground dog fighting ring.

I’d like to see a blanket ban on ALL bull breeds (yes even staffies snd frenchies) what is the point of keeping a dog with such an oversized jaw and powerful bite that can so easily be crossed with banned breeds like the pitbull.

Other big powerful breeds and crossbreeds should require a licence and a law stating they can only be off lead in designated areas (not public parks!) And a tax to deter people from choosing large powerful dogs. I think dog training classes should be compulsory too before any dog (even smaller ones) are allowed off lead in public places.

I live locally to this and every other dog here is an American ‘bully’ the size of a small pony. They are usually owned by complete scrotes. Word on the street here is that these dogs were badly treated and usually lived in a shed.

Some people are unsuitable to own pets.

Pit Bulls?

Aren't they banned 🤔 so the owners have illegal dogs that have killed. Obviously those particular owners need addressing.

Now a cockerpoo, spaniel or poodle kill rate....doesn't happen. Pit types are banned for a very good reason

An awful thing to happen - poor, poor lady...

Although I don’t think it’s just the breed of dog, I do think there should be extra controls on certain breeds of dogs. Staffies were wonderful years ago, but now they’ve been overbred by knuckleheaded violent twats who think the dog makes them look ‘big’. That’s what needs putting a stop to. Special licenses for breeding every kind of bull terrier, and special checks before you can own one (and possibly a few other breeds too).

That’s not because other dogs can’t bite or be out of control, it’s because the above breeds attract a certain kind of person, and those people shouldn’t ever be allowed a dog. I also feel very sorry for the breeds that have been ruined by these twats.

I think dog ownership has increased massively in recent years and with this needs to come a review of the expectations of dog owners, as well as more rules about public places.

I get very annoyed by dog owners who cannot call their animal off if it jumps up or chases my kids, but it’s never their fault, and the dog is always “friendly” and “not dangerous”. The working assumption seems to be that everyone else has to be ok with dogs, and not the dog owners that have to take responsibility.

Obviously it’s a completely different matter in this case if it’s a banned breed, but even in the case of a banned breed you can bet that poor socialisation, not enough exercise and encouragement of agressive behaviour is most likely the MAIN reason for it having done this.

What an absolutely horrific way to die for this woman though

@ArmchairTraveller

Numerous complaints and sod-all done about them.

And this is the problem. Most dogs are not aggressive.

More should be done about the owners of the ones that are.

Dogs that are vicious are likely to be trained to be so or to be inadequately exercised.

We have a dog that is walked, unmuzzled, locally. He is known to be aggressive, trained as a guard dog. The owner ought to be fined and convicted for failing to keep him on a lead and muzzle. Repeated offences should result in the dog being rehomed.

This is the problem, not every dog in the country being prevented from appropriate exercise by being leashed unnecessarily all of the time.

'get very annoyed by dog owners who cannot call their animal off if it jumps up or chases my kids'
Yes, we have dogs but always on lead when in busy places. Off the lead only when in wide open places and away from others.

As a dog owner it drives me mad when hapless owners are oblivious to what their dog is doing ahead of them of behind them. No one wants a strange dog bounding up to them no matter how friendly their owner thinks they are.

This makes me so angry. That poor woman didn’t deserve to die a terrifying, brutal death by two powerful dogs. The facts of the case will come out in time.

generally I feel there’s just no need for people to own these massively powerful breeds who are capable of inflicting such awful injuries on people should they snap. I still remember the awful case of the boy who was killed because he walked into a room holding a meat pie and the dog in question went for it.

If you want a dog there’s plenty of less risky breeds out there. Unless it’s purely a status thing owning them? In which case I’d suggest the owners probably aren’t responsible enough to be having them in the first place if it’s all about their ego.

Comparing a potentially lethal dog to a peanut as a previous poster did is ridiculous also.

Dog mess is increasingly out of control and I don’t dare walk in the local fields because there are just so many dogs off lead with zero recall and owners who don’t even seem to know that they could or should have recall. I seem to encounter clueless owners all the time, ones who bought a dog but don’t know anything about the responsibility attached. I can’t see any government introducing something like dog licences because it would be so unpopular but this feels like a problem which is getting worse. I think at least a big public information campaign about the basics of dog training would help with the owners who have approached dog ownership utterly thoughtlessly. There will always be a subsection of owners who want aggressive dogs - and if they are getting pit bulls, which are illegal here anyway, they aren’t going to comply with any other laws that might be brought in around dog ownership.

I think people should report banned dog breeds. I know it’s deed, not breed. But someone who deliberately buys a banned breed is not someone who will be a careful and responsible owner. Then, dogs like pit bulls are only owned by criminals. They will deliberately make that dog dangerous and give the vicious circle another spin. I’d support a change in the Dangerous Dogs Act to stop banning breeds and instead regulate owners of all dogs, but that won’t happen. So if I had neighbours who got pit bulls, I’d report them without question or hesitation. I see threads on here where people are reluctant to report banned dogs, aggressive dogs, dogs which are out of control because they don’t want the dog to be destroyed. I think it’s better a dog is painlessly euthanised than a person brutally mauled in a terrifying attack.

Dogs can inflict life changing injuries and they can kill. I don’t see why owning them is different to car ownership. But there are so many dog owners opposed to licensing that I don’t think any politicians would be keen to take it on.

My dog is a sweetie, and as a working breed has prey drive. He is an excellent guard dog and I have seen him go for a stranger on the street who was approaching me rather quickly and directly

FFS i'd have your dog put down and you banned from ever having a dog again

He has never bitten anyone. I gave too little information: he lunged when the people crossed the road and came straight towards me. He was on a lead, I pulled him in and away and apologised.

Having been on the receiving end of dogs and owners like you, i can tell you that its fucking scary, you have no idea if the dog is just barking or about to launch a full on attack

See above. He was on a lead and under control.

Really? you'd have a dog put down for lunging and barking when spooked?

I’d quite happily pay a licence fee for my dog but unfortunately don’t think it would make any difference.

Stupid people appear to be the common denominator in most things. How many horrific car accidents are genuine accidents and how many are due to stupid people speeding, or drinking or taking drugs before getting behind the wheel? How many dog attacks are due to a genuine nasty dog and how many are because of stupid people who haven’t trained and socialised the dog.

Sadly we are always going to have stupid people because it’s not illegal to breed them.

Oh and I meant to add, I see dogs in places where they aren’t allowed all the time. Signs up on beaches and play parks totally ignored and dogs running loose across them. So many owners don’t think rules apply to them. And they probably don’t - who’s enforcing them, after all?

I’d quite happily pay a licence fee for my dog but unfortunately don’t think it would make any difference.

A dog licence needs to be meaningful, like a driving licence, rather than just a fee. Prospective owners should have to demonstrate knowledge of how to socialise, train and control their dog as well as the legal responsibilities you have as a dog owner.

There should also be random checks on microchipping. Our vets always checked when we took ours in (his chip used to migrate from place to place in his upper body which was amusing when the vet was trying to find it) but you can bet that owners of out-of-control dogs never go near a vet.