Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

This is horrific and those particular dogs should of course be put to sleep, and the owner prosecuted.

But. “Pit bull” is not a breed. There are several breeds that can be classed under the pit bull umbrella such as American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, American bulldog, even some Staffy mixes if they have enough bull breed in them. American staffs and American bulldogs are not banned, and the current legislation identifies pit bulls by measuring the dog, resulting in harmless dogs being seized because they fit the size specifications of a “pit bull”. In short, banning breeds is bad for a number of reasons - it doesn’t reduce the number of dog attacks because people still have pit bull-type dogs under the radar, it doesnt stop people wanting them. The sort of person who wants a dog like this will go to the black market and likely end up with a badly bred, unsocialised, possibly dangerous dog. Then there’s the fact dogs that have never attacked anyone can be seized and destroyed under this law.

What IS needed are far more stringent checks on the importing of animals, and who is breeding and selling them. Standardised national campaigns on dog training and ownership. People with violent criminal convictions possibly prohibited from owning dogs.

Any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, and yes, large, strong breeds will inflict more damage but banning types of dog which frankly may as well have been picked out of a hat isn’t the answer.

@novaissuper

I think it's nuts to have that type of dog around a newborn, but of course, your dog would never a hurt a fly, they never do.

You are being sneery regarding my dog based on something so irrelevant like her breed.

My dog and newborn are always supervised when together but this is not because she's a staffie but because she's a dog and all dogs can be unpredictable regardless of their breed. I don't view dogs through rose tinted classes as I Appreciate they are all capable of biting but my dog is no more or less likely to attack because of her breed. Aggression towards people is not a breed specific trait.

Did you know that the kennel club only recommends two breeds of dog for families with young children, and that one of those dog breeds is the Staffordshire Bill Terrier? It's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me.

Sorry if you think I'm sneering at you, but I am just sick of this judgement around certain breeds of dogs. It's nonsensical. Canine behavioural professionals and animal welfare organisations all take the same line on this. I think they understand more about dogs than MN.

Absolutely.

My dog is a sweetie, and as a working breed has prey drive. He is an excellent guard dog and I have seen him go for a stranger on the street who was approaching me rather quickly and directly.

He's never offered attitude to anyone in the house or in ordinary interactions outside the home.

Do I trust him? No I bloody don't, in exactly the same way I don't trust any dog. They can be uncertain in their temper if they've just been wound up by another dog. They can get spooked/startled by being approached from behind quietly. They have gobs full of cutlery.

This is why I'm glad that all dogs in Victoria (probably Australia too) have to be on a lead outside the home unless they are somewhere where they're allowed off - very few places, I can tell you. All registered with on the spot fines for non-compliance. And not carrying poo-bags.

Comments like these just piss me off "every time an horrific attack happens, it is a bull-breed."

The news is skewed and when bull breeds attack, the breed is prominently mentioned. When the dogs are eg a lab or lab cross or working dog, breed is a minor mention.

It's not only large dogs that kill - a woman was killed not long back by a pack of 7 Dachshund crosses.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.news.com.au/technology/science/animals/police-release-identify-of-woman-mauled-to-death-by-sausage-dogs/news-story/abc5616979dfa8e91868aaeb5a9a58d2

My staffy was a beautiful, friendly dog. Got attacked by a wolf hound, which I had to haul off him, but didn't become dog sensitive (which was a concern of mine). Wolf hound was declared dangerous and owner opted to put down rather than abide by the rules for keeping dangerous dogs.

I would trust my staffy streets ahead of an extremely poorly socialised border collie cross I know, whose owner is quite chuffed at the likelihood of said dog attacking some who enters their yard.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Every death is tragic.

There are 5.5 million dogs in the UK, and they kill 3-5 people per year. The risk of being killed by a dog are only marginally higher than being killed by lightning (2 per year).

I'm not sure of your point. You think 3-5 people is acceptable, or unacceptable? I think re-introduce dog licences, about £10 per month, (or £100 pa), okay it might affect pensioners but it will allow police to seize and destroy unlicensed dogs owned by irresponsible owners.

As for bite force, staffies don't even make the list where labs come in at #20
petcomments.com/ten-dogs-which-have-the-strongest-bite/

Firstly feel incredibly sorry for this poor lady, attacked in her own garden. Frightening way for her to die.

“I would like to see more breeds banned and dogs on a lead in all public places for a start.”

What breeds?
Most dogs are kept on leads in public places aren’t they? They are here.

I doubt dogs who attack like this are kept as family pets, with no previous history of aggression. Could be escaped fighting dogs, untrained guard dogs, it’s not normal dog behaviour!

“I think re-introduce dog licences, about £10 per month, (or £100 pa), okay it might affect pensioners but it will allow police to seize and destroy unlicensed dogs owned by irresponsible owners.” Don’t the police have those powers anyway. Why should every dog owner pay £100 a year because some idiot owns a dog they can’t control, that might need to be seized.

I just can’t believe it, I live just around the corner from where it happened. And I can’t get over it.

I agree it's awful OP and a lot of people who have dogs are really not fit to look after them and train them properly.

However we have the Dangerous Dogs Act... I've just looked up this news story and it sounds like it was a pit bull, which are already illegal to own.

I wonder what you would like to see changed? As someone above said, even with specific breed legislations, any dog can harm someone if it wants to. It is also very difficult to enforce as there will always be people keeping animals that they are not meant to. It's a very difficult issue.

Just saw your suggestion "I would like to see more breeds banned and dogs on a lead in all public places for a start"

Dogs are already meant to be on leads in public places and there are already laws around where they can/ should be let off. Most dogs won't harm anyone and so there is a balance with allowing well behaved dogs to be off the lead in open spaces.

You suggest also banning more breeds but which breeds and how would you decide, and how would you enforce that?

Statistically this is too small of an issue for the police to pump huge amounts of resources into and it would be very hard to police.

I am a dog owner and love dogs. But there breeds aren’t safe. I also think they have no place in the UK

@MyDogTails

The issue is that no-one thinks their dog is capable of attacking a seal or deer or sheep or human. But they're wild animals whether we like it or not and it frankly isn't down to training, it's instinct. The smaller the dog, the less likelihood that an attack will kill.

Except they aren’t wild animals; they are domesticated animals and could no more survive in the wild than your average cow or sheep. The issue is a certain breeds that are more aggressive and trained badly by owners who think having a dog that can rip your arm off is a status symbol.

The solution? A licence fee that covers the cost of an inspection system and increases with risk to the public. Cockerpoo that is obviously friendly and obedient then it’s £50 for assessment and £10 a year afterwards with spot checks as required. Aggressive dog of any size that can’t be handled by the assessor, banned. Large dog that is friendly/well trained but could pose a risk £50 for the first assessment and a continued £50 assessment every six months to monitor condition and temperament potentially tapering off when the dog has been viewed several times. Inspector to monitor dog and conditions dog is kept in. Large dog kept in small flat where owner works all day, not allowed unless suitable day care arranged.

Guard dogs to be licensed as such and owner required to be trained/qualified and have a reason to own it.

Essentially, if you want a dog, register for a license, prove you can afford to own one, prove you can train it (previous dog ownership or puppy classes) and prove you are responsible enough(kept in appropriate conditions, no prior issues with dogs).

Licence to be worn on the collar, unlicensed dogs to be seized and destroyed unless owner achieves compliance in a set time.

The issue is that no-one thinks their dog is capable of attacking a seal or deer or sheep or human.

Then they're idiots. We have a lovely 1yo labradoodle, he's well socialised and trained but he could definitely kill a sheep because he's an animal which is why he's on lead anywhere near livestock (and actually we just avoid walks near livestock at this time of year).

People are mentioning labradors. Are those statistics per Labrador in the UK versus other breed. For example, if there are 100,000 labradors in the UK and 10 bit someone last year, but only 2,000 pitbulls and 5 pitbulls bit someone, then the latter are a more dangerous dog.

I read a very interesting article by an ER doctor. She said up until the mid 80s, most dog bites were pretty routine. Nasty but not usually fatal and fairly easy to treat. With the emergence of bully breeds in the US where they were legal, she said the bites took on a dramatic difference. There were many more of them and rather than resembling a regular bite wound, they were very severe, "shredding" type injuries that were almost impossible to stitch back up. She said there was a dramatic change from simple bite wounds, to devastating gashes aimed at the most vulnerable areas on a person, that would result in the maximum amount of injury and blood loss.

She directly correlated the increase in bully breed ownership with the dramatic change in the type and manner of bite wounds. Make no mistake, when a pit bull gets the urge to attack it will go directly for the jungular and is not easily stopped.

Here in the US where they are still legal many places, pit bulls kill more ppl than any other breed by far. They might not bite more than other breeds but they certainly kill more.

Anyone who equates the very rare dachshund maulings with pit bull attacks is extremely delusional. The article was horrifying to read, and quite an eye opener. God bless that poor woman and her family.

Wow, between 2005 and 2019, pit bulls killed 346 Americans. The next closest breed was rottweilers with 51 deaths.

I wonder how many jack russels and Chihuahuas killed ppl?

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Every death is tragic.

There are 5.5 million dogs in the UK, and they kill 3-5 people per year. The risk of being killed by a dog are only marginally higher than being killed by lightning (2 per year).

Oh is that all?

3-5 too many.
We can't stop lightning.
We CAN ban all breeds capable of killing humans.

I went for a walk yesterday and a massive dog came over to my 2 toy breeds

It was huge. I was nervous and I asked the owner what it was. It was a pocket Bully- which I've since looked up is an American pit bull

This woman had two young kids I couldn't believe the size of this dog.

I couldn't get out of there quickly enough in case it went for my dogs, the size of it was such that neither the owner or me would have a chance in pulling it off.

As I walked away I just couldn't get my head Roun why you want want that type of dog with 2 young kids as if it attacks they would have no chance.

I know any dog can attack but some dogs can cause a lot less damage.

Rottweilers, Pit Bulls, Staffies... NOT domestic pets. Nothing will ever convince me otherwise. Nothing.

I spent my entire life around dogs and currently have two - a golden retriever and a mix-breed large dog (we suspect it is a Borzoi-mix). They are sweet and gentle at home but I'd NEVER leave them alone with my 15m old daughter and they'd NEVER be off leash in public unless in a properly fenced dog park or our fully enclosed/fenced garden - especially not the mix-breed as she is reactive (although she never bit or otherwise attacked an animal or a human). I love them to bits but they are large animals and I appreciate that not everyone we encounter on the street loves/is not scared of dogs. I agree that it is owner's responsibility to keep dogs healthy, trained and under control and failure to do that should have serious repercussions for the said owner.

Threads about dog attacks always end up full of people claiming that they are a responsible dog owner and they know more about dogs than anyone else and their particular dog is well trained and it's everyone else's dog that is the problem.

I don't think anyone should be allowed to own an animal capable of inflicting serious injury and parade it around in public. Unless it is an actual working animal such as a farm dog. Whether your dog is nice is totally irrelevant, if its an animal capable of hurting a person or wildlife then it shouldn't be allowed. Dog ownership shouldn't be so generally accepted and dog owners shouldn't feel entitled to take over every outdoor space and pavement with their animals. I'm sick of having to move my children away from dogs everywhere we go, to pack up picnics, to dodge piles of shit on pavements because every tom, dick and harry thinks their right to have a dog trumps everyone else's right to a safe, enjoyable existence.

There was a bit in Scotland attacked this week as well while having a picnic in the park with his mum. The owner had seven dogs off lead and had the fucking cheek to blame the boy for eating a sandwich where there might be dogs.

These people are total narcissists.

That must have been so terrifying and excruciatingly painful, and in her own garden, how awful. Keeping animals as pets is weird anyway, I hope they throw the book at him.

This thread has just descended in to people trying to protect their own choice of breed. It isn’t about breed, we don’t even actually know for sure yet which kind of dog was in involved in this horrific attack. Dogs that are badly handled and not trained properly have the propensity to attack and bite, even some dogs that are can turn. My parents had a tiny little cairn type terrier that ended up getting a legion on the brain which completely changed its lovely nature in to an entirely aggressive dog. Dogs should be watched at all times and never left along with children. You think you know your animal because you’ve anthropomorphized it to within an inch of its life. ..but it’s still an unpredictable animal. As in Australia, they should be kept on leads at all times. I would like to see licenses being brought back and compulsory attendance of dog training and socialising. Some women over the road from
Me got a puppy last year and was laughing while explaining how totally unsocialised her animal was and how anxious it was around strangers....anxious dogs make reactive dogs and reactive dogs can be incredibly dangerous.

It would be a waste of time and resources to place stricter controls on all dogs for safety reasons, because the majority of breeds don't seriously maul or kill

Looking at the approx 8000 people admitted in to hospital each year with dog bites and your statement isn't really true.

My dog is a sweetie, and as a working breed has prey drive. He is an excellent guard dog and I have seen him go for a stranger on the street who was approaching me rather quickly and directly

FFS i'd have your dog put down and you banned from ever having a dog again.
Having been on the receiving end of dogs and owners like you, i can tell you that its fucking scary, you have no idea if the dog is just barking or about to launch a full on attack.

The last dog that did that to me and my partner, kicked it so hard, it was knocked out, a shame but down to a twat of owner laughing as if went for us, no attempt to bring it under control.

As for letting any dog nr a baby - irresponsible.

The answer is licencing, with funds used to employ dog wardens, the fee needs to match the cost of dogs, so around £1k per year, very difficult to ban breeds due to cross breeding.

I think a licence like a driving licence is needed when it comes to dogs. I think the price aspect should be removed too so that there’s no point in breeding or steeling them unlawfully either.