Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

@givemesteel

Four things need to happen -

1. All dangerous breeds should be banned, including cross breeds. 5 year grace period to ensure all dangerous dogs are neutered and no more are born. The remaining living dogs are licensed and their deaths recorded. Penalties for owning a dangerous dog is equivalent to owning another dangerous weapon.

1. Sentences for injuries caused by your dog are equivalent to you doing it yourself, ie your dog kills someone, you get a manslaughter sentence as it is gross negligence.

1. All dogs are on leads in public at all times, only exceptions being working dogs like sheepdogs.

1. All dogs have licences which include the genetics of the dog. All dogs are neutered unless the owner has a specific licence and pays for training on breeding dogs.

I love dogs but enough is enough.

Those first two things happened in the 1990s They've not helped matters. Neither will licensing.

Leash laws are poor for welfare and don't stop dogs biting. There's no evidence that they improve dog bite rates

There is no DNA test to ascertain breed especially as pitbull is not a recognised breed, it’s a a mixture of breeds.
The system for ‘typing’ a banned breed is measurements with a tape measure, dogs have lost their lives based on a tape measure; not temperament or incident.
Yes these dogs have been massively failed by their owner but it’s not the breed that made them vicious.

@givemesteel

Four things need to happen -

1. All dangerous breeds should be banned, including cross breeds. 5 year grace period to ensure all dangerous dogs are neutered and no more are born. The remaining living dogs are licensed and their deaths recorded. Penalties for owning a dangerous dog is equivalent to owning another dangerous weapon.

1. Sentences for injuries caused by your dog are equivalent to you doing it yourself, ie your dog kills someone, you get a manslaughter sentence as it is gross negligence.

1. All dogs are on leads in public at all times, only exceptions being working dogs like sheepdogs.

1. All dogs have licences which include the genetics of the dog. All dogs are neutered unless the owner has a specific licence and pays for training on breeding dogs.

I love dogs but enough is enough.

If you want number 3, then you're going to need a LOT more dog parks and private fields that can be rented. Otherwise you'll end up with a huge number of neurotic, under-exercised, under-socialised dogs, which is a recipe for disaster.

In addition, I do not understand the popularity of Jack Russells. These are a small breed but many are very yappy and snappy and are a big cause of dog bites.

There's some quite interesting differences in people's behaviour with regard to dog size which may go some way to explaining why so many small dogs are yappy and snappy. Often a small dog behaving in a "fierce" way is found amusing and perceived as less frightening than a large dog so owners don't implement training to address it. Small dogs are often picked up and treated as toys or teddy bears whether they like it or not so some will develop behavioural traits to discourage this because they find it overwhelming.

People seem to forget dogs are sentient beings and part of being a good owner is learning to read their behaviour and respond appropriately, smaller dogs are more at our mercy than bigger dogs so they find ways to defend themselves against unwelcome interactions.

It's pretty facile to say that dog licensing didn't work. It was phased out over 30 years ago (1988). Technology has moved on leaps and bounds since then. I am sure it is not beyond the ken of modern say science and technology to be able to devise a chipping system that records all manner of information about a dog, including whether a yearly licence renewal has been paid, that would help keep it and members of the public safe. Strict liability fining for anyone with a dog/puppy over the age of 12 weeks that is not chipped and/or yearly licence paid up. The RSPCA was calling for the return of dog licensing a couple of years ago.

Can we possibly agree that a dog bred to fight bulls is not an ideal pet?

sunflowersandbuttercups Veterinari

Thanks for the replies but I can't help noticing they are mostly very dog centred

I'm think more of regulations to do with public safety. For example leads on dogs in all public places and the phasing out of the type of dogs who hospitalise thousands of people a year

Other countries have lead laws in public places. I don't see why this can't happen here

I really think there are just too many dogs as well. We are a densely populated country. Our houses and spaces are small. We need to bring the numbers down. I'd also propose a ban on one household keeping large numbers of dogs

There is also the multi billion £/€/$ pet industry. The way food is produced. The way adverts humanise dogs or portray them as animated teddy bears. There is an advert for dog food or dog paraphernalia, that shows a real dog sat on a couch with popcorn, or similar, watching TV as if it is a human being

@SpaceBatAngelDragon

It's pretty facile to say that dog licensing didn't work. It was phased out over 30 years ago (1988). Technology has moved on leaps and bounds since then. I am sure it is not beyond the ken of modern say science and technology to be able to devise a chipping system that records all manner of information about a dog, including whether a yearly licence renewal has been paid, that would help keep it and members of the public safe. Strict liability fining for anyone with a dog/puppy over the age of 12 weeks that is not chipped and/or yearly licence paid up. The RSPCA was calling for the return of dog licensing a couple of years ago.

There's already legislation in place that requires all dogs to be microchipped and registered.

It's just not a 'licensing system'

I'm not sure how it would prevent dog bites?

@givemesteel

Four things need to happen -

1. All dangerous breeds should be banned, including cross breeds. 5 year grace period to ensure all dangerous dogs are neutered and no more are born. The remaining living dogs are licensed and their deaths recorded. Penalties for owning a dangerous dog is equivalent to owning another dangerous weapon.

1. Sentences for injuries caused by your dog are equivalent to you doing it yourself, ie your dog kills someone, you get a manslaughter sentence as it is gross negligence.

1. All dogs are on leads in public at all times, only exceptions being working dogs like sheepdogs.

1. All dogs have licences which include the genetics of the dog. All dogs are neutered unless the owner has a specific licence and pays for training on breeding dogs.

I love dogs but enough is enough.

1 - This is already the case. Unless you want more breeds banned and added to the list?

2 - Again, this is already the case. If your dog kills someone, you can go to prison for 14 years and be charged with manslaughter.

3 - If you want dogs to be on leads at all times, you to need to hugely increase the availability of enclosed fields so dogs can still run freely.

4 - Breeding is not the only reason for not spaying or neutering a pet.

@Flaxmeadow

sunflowersandbuttercups Veterinari

Thanks for the replies but I can't help noticing they are mostly very dog centred

I'm think more of regulations to do with public safety. For example leads on dogs in all public places and the phasing out of the type of dogs who hospitalise thousands of people a year

Other countries have lead laws in public places. I don't see why this can't happen here

I really think there are just too many dogs as well. We are a densely populated country. Our houses and spaces are small. We need to bring the numbers down. I'd also propose a ban on one household keeping large numbers of dogs

There is also the multi billion £/€/$ pet industry. The way food is produced. The way adverts humanise dogs or portray them as animated teddy bears. There is an advert for dog food or dog paraphernalia, that shows a real dog sat on a couch with popcorn, or similar, watching TV as if it is a human being

Good luck with that 👍 I'm leaving this thread now. Its batshit. My heart goes out to this poor woman and her family.

@randomer
Pitbull is not a breed, it’s a mixed breed.
Very few dogs have continued to be bred for purpose, a dog is not inherently aggressive.
Will we ban GSDs? Rottweilers? Doberman’s?

Strict liability fining for anyone with a dog/puppy over the age of 12 weeks that is not chipped and/or yearly licence paid up

This is already law. All puppies must be microchipped before going to new homes, and all dogs (except working dogs) must wear a collar and ID tag in public at all times.

@Flaxmeadow

sunflowersandbuttercups Veterinari

Thanks for the replies but I can't help noticing they are mostly very dog centred

I'm think more of regulations to do with public safety. For example leads on dogs in all public places and the phasing out of the type of dogs who hospitalise thousands of people a year

Other countries have lead laws in public places. I don't see why this can't happen here

I really think there are just too many dogs as well. We are a densely populated country. Our houses and spaces are small. We need to bring the numbers down. I'd also propose a ban on one household keeping large numbers of dogs

There is also the multi billion £/€/$ pet industry. The way food is produced. The way adverts humanise dogs or portray them as animated teddy bears. There is an advert for dog food or dog paraphernalia, that shows a real dog sat on a couch with popcorn, or similar, watching TV as if it is a human being

Our solutions are dog-centred because we're suggesting effective ways to reduce the risk of problematic dog behaviour

Lead laws are like breed laws - knee jerk populist approaches that don't actually achieve public safety.

If you want to achieve something then you need a strategic and targeted approach. Not a populist 'ban'

The UK actually has relatively few dogs per head of population compared to many other regions (Latin America, USA, India, sub Saharan Africa)
Even compared to Europe we don't have that many:

www.statista.com/statistics/515475/dog-ownership-european-union-eu-by-country/

Again it's important to deal in facts rather than assumptions

[quote HerMammy]@randomer
Pitbull is not a breed, it’s a mixed breed.
Very few dogs have continued to be bred for purpose, a dog is not inherently aggressive.
Will we ban GSDs? Rottweilers? Doberman’s?[/quote]
You're right, "Pit Bull" alone isn't a breed, but there is a breed called the American Pitbull Terrier.

dogtime.com/dog-breeds/american-pit-bull-terrier#/slide/1

UK legislation confuses the matter by banning Pit Bull Terriers as well as "pit bull types".

@sunflowersandbuttercups
It may be the law but is not enforced and do you think everyone is getting dogs from reputable breeders?

So deal with that then.

Thanks for the replies but I can't help noticing they are mostly very dog centred. I'm think more of regulations to do with public safety. For example leads on dogs in all public places and the phasing out of the type of dogs who hospitalise thousands of people a year

Of course they're dog-centered. Because focusing on dog welfare, training and breeding is the best way to improve temperament and health.

Pit bull-type dogs are ALREADY banned in this country and this has been the case for 20 years now. And it's clearly not very effective as, like you say, 8,000 people were hospitalised by dog bites/attacks last year. So, instead of continuing down the same road, why not try a different method?

Other countries have lead laws in public places. I don't see why this can't happen here

I don't disagree, but countries like America are also full of enclosed spaces where dogs can run off the lead. That isn't the case in England.

I really think there are just too many dogs as well. We are a densely populated country. Our houses and spaces are small. We need to bring the numbers down. I'd also propose a ban on one household keeping large numbers of dogs

Yep, but most people don't own bully breeds. They own labradors, golden retrievers, cockapoos and whippets - all dogs which, according to you, aren't dangerous - so why the need to reduce the numbers?

There is also the multi billion £/€/$ pet industry. The way food is produced. The way adverts humanise dogs or portray them as animated teddy bears. There is an advert for dog food or dog paraphernalia, that shows a real dog sat on a couch with popcorn, or similar, watching TV as if it is a human being

Absolutely this is a problem, I agree. Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated as such.

Our solutions are dog-centred because we're suggesting effective ways to reduce the risk of problematic dog behaviour

I was asking more for solutions to do with savage maiming, even lethal, behaviour, rather than "problematic"

[quote HerMammy]@sunflowersandbuttercups
It may be the law but is not enforced and do you think everyone is getting dogs from reputable breeders?[/quote]
If current laws aren't enforced, what makes you think new ones will be?

@Flaxmeadow

Our solutions are dog-centred because we're suggesting effective ways to reduce the risk of problematic dog behaviour

I was asking more for solutions to do with savage maiming, even lethal, behaviour, rather than "problematic"

And the answers given still stand.

Because behaviour is a spectrum.
Dogs that savagely attack humans don't just wake up like that one day.
It's an iterative process

@Flaxmeadow

Our solutions are dog-centred because we're suggesting effective ways to reduce the risk of problematic dog behaviour

I was asking more for solutions to do with savage maiming, even lethal, behaviour, rather than "problematic"

But there are already solutions for that in place, and owners can have their dogs removed and destroyed if they don't comply. They can also be fined and banned from keeping dogs again.

Savage behaviour can occur in dogs of any size, type or breed. So banning a certain type of dog won't stop the attacks. As has been said numerous times - pitbulls and pitbull-types are already illegal in this country and attacks are still high.

So why would banning a load of other breeds make any difference?

@sunflowersandbuttercups
I don’t want any dog breed banned, the DDA is outdated and unfair and needs to be repealed, no dog should die because of how it looks. Deed not Breed is the road we would be going down not hysterical breed bans.

I'm talking about going well beyond one off chipping to merely trace an owner. A chip that can record whether a yearly license fee has been paid, whether an owner has turned up for and passed (what should be) compulsory dog handling/training, hell, even a tracker to identify whether a dog was in the vicinity of an incident (a dog fight, a biting incident). It's not a matter of just preventing dog bites. It's about weeding out bad owners, which all the dog defenders on here keep saying is the problem without offering any solutions. If none of that would help to weed out bad owners, then maybe domestic dog ownership, outside of a working dog arrangement, should be banned. That way, nobody would be bitten or killed.

[quote HerMammy]@sunflowersandbuttercups
I don’t want any dog breed banned, the DDA is outdated and unfair and needs to be repealed, no dog should die because of how it looks. Deed not Breed is the road we would be going down not hysterical breed bans.[/quote]
I totally agree, but sadly it won't happen.

This thread is a prime example of the hysteria around bully breeds. If this poor woman was killed by a labrador, nobody would be shouting for all labradors to be banned.

It's been said numerous times that babies have been killed by tiny little Jack Russells, yet I never see threads saying to ban all Jack Russells. So why the hate towards bullies?

It's nothing more than prejudice and a huge lack of education.