Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

Also, some dogs benefit health-wise from remaining entire, as neutering can have a negative impact on temperament. This is especially true for male dogs

The research I can find on this is quite old. The negatives of neutering are associated with neutering too early, we have much more information about the best time to perform the procedure for different sized dogs now than we did 15 years ago. There is an increased risk fear aggression against other dogs but this can be dealt with by good socialisation before neutering and appropriate behavioural training after if it starts to develop. Overall spaying and neutering is best for the dog and the responsible thing for owners to do.

@sunflowersandbuttercups, so they were predominately tan coloured. One guy had a pair of mixed coloured ones. They were large, muscular and an almost pig like snout.

What else could they have been?

Another thing is banning breeds that are cruel. “I love animals” is another thing dog owners always say. Why are people buying breeds that make dogs unable to breath properly for example? All of this needs to be banned! It’s cruel and horrible and these people are not animal lovers.

There are so many aspects of dog ownership that could benefit from a more robust system. Less bites, less dog poo on streets, less deaths, less breeds that are dangerous or cruel to the animal. What’s not to love!

WalkinginMemphis2

On the early pages of this thread I mentioned the posts that always appear under news items on social media. News items of yet another person, often a child, killed by a dog and many comments are full of dog photos and sentimental humanising language, by the owners of the same type of dog. Their "bully boy" that is "just a big softie".

There are memes, photos, and videos on this thread of similar dogs, posted by dog owners. I don't understand why

I'm aware they are banned but the law is not being enforced and many people lie about a dogs heritage. Or simply don't know it.

So what makes you think new or different laws would be enforced if current ones are, in your opinion, ignored?

Then there is the whole shady area of dog farming as well. This need a to be brought into the light

I couldn't agree more.

Measurement regularly taken of size, including height, weight, jaw, neck, head and those above the threshold to be neutered and spayed. This would be a phasing out

But none of those regulations would have prevented the deaths of the babies killed by Jack Russells, or the girl upthread who had her lip ripped off by a labrador.

[quote randomer]@sunflowersandbuttercups, so they were predominately tan coloured. One guy had a pair of mixed coloured ones. They were large, muscular and an almost pig like snout.

What else could they have been?[/quote]
Any of the other breeds I mentioned, or a cross of them.

I mean, you clearly believe they were pitbulls and yes, they may well have been, but they could also have been any number of other, perfectly legal dog breeds.

@Flaxmeadow

Pit bulls and Pit bull "types" already ARE illegal in the UK, based on measurement, temperament etc.

The rules you're proposing already exist.

I'm aware they are banned but the law is not being enforced and many people lie about a dogs heritage. Or simply don't know it. Then there is the whole shady area of dog farming as well. This need a to be brought into the light

This is why I want stricter controls. The law goes some way, but it is not good enough

High price licencing
All dogs on leads in all public places
Measurement regularly taken of size, including height, weight, jaw, neck, head and those above the threshold to be neutered and spayed. This would be a phasing out

I'm not suggesting this to upset dog owners, I'm thinking of ways to prevent the thousands (close on 8,000) of annual hospital admissions onto wards for serious dog bite injuries

Most serious dog bite injuries aren't from bull breeds. So that's a faulty presumption.

Additionally neutering can make fear reactive dogs more likely to be aggressive.

Your proposal wouldn't' actually achieve your objectives even if it was enforced

Why are people buying breeds that make dogs unable to breath properly for example? All of this needs to be banned! It’s cruel and horrible and these people are not animal lovers.

No they are not animal lovers. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland it's called qualzucht, torture breeding, and it's been a crime, for over 15 years, to breed these types of dog.

I cannot believe people are arguing this. Someone got killed. The whole area of dog ownership needs to be looked at. I personally wouldn’t want a dog in my house. I have young kids and I would never forgive myself if it went wrong.

I think we can all agree that a nip on the fingers is different to being killed by a dog.

The only way to guarantee complete safety is no dogs.

Next best thing is ultra tight regulations and proper enforcement.

@sunflowersandbuttercups, I don't clearly believe anything.....I tried to match up what I'd seen with some images and the best fit I could.

Large, muscular dogs with clpped ears and a pig like snout......what else could it be?
On a gold link chain as some sort of perverse trophy?

Do tell how a tiny terrier can be the same as this?

That poor Grandma who was killed.

So what makes you think new or different laws would be enforced if current ones are, in your opinion, ignored

I've already said laws should be strictly enforced.

Do you think its acceptable that almost 8,000 people are admitted onto hospital wards every year with serious dog bite injuries? If not, what do you think should happen to bring that number down?
Any of the other breeds I mentioned, or a cross of them.

I mean, you clearly believe they were pitbulls and yes, they may well have been, but they could also have been any number of other, perfectly legal dog breeds.

True it might be legal but if so then whatever that breed is, it should probably be banned too

Veterinari

So what to do then?

Do you, or anyone else, think its acceptable that almost 8,000 people are admitted onto hospital wards every year with serious dog bite injuries? If not, what do you think should happen to bring that number down?

@randomer a few years back where I used to live people crossed SBTs with Rhodesian Ridgebacks to produce the "pit" look you describe. I think there are far fewer true pitbulls in the UK than people think but lots of crosses bred for that look.

I agree if we scrapped all dogs that a big enough and strong enough to kill an adult or those with known temperament issues, we could probably cut the 8000 figure down by quite a lot. Sure there would be the odd freak incident involving sausage dogs, there would still be bites by certain breeds but we can bring that number down by a lot I’m sure.

To be perfectly honest, that lady that poor ladies life is worth so much more than you pleas of “my bully boy is such a softie though”

It’s not your god given right to own a dangerous animal. She was just enjoying her garden.

YANBU, dog ownership needs to be much more strictly controlled. Something like licensed dog purchases only being made through a centre who assessed and approves the breeder, the breeding pair, and the homes the pups will be going to. Yes it would be very costly, but paid for by the licensing system. Any old idiot can buy a dog and it always seem to end in disaster - usually for the dog but sometimes for people like this poor lady as well.

@FOJN

Also, some dogs benefit health-wise from remaining entire, as neutering can have a negative impact on temperament. This is especially true for male dogs

The research I can find on this is quite old. The negatives of neutering are associated with neutering too early, we have much more information about the best time to perform the procedure for different sized dogs now than we did 15 years ago. There is an increased risk fear aggression against other dogs but this can be dealt with by good socialisation before neutering and appropriate behavioural training after if it starts to develop. Overall spaying and neutering is best for the dog and the responsible thing for owners to do.

It's a very divided topic, even among vets and dog professionals.

It's generally accepted that it's not a good idea to neuter a nervous male dog. Yes, good socialisation helps prevent fear-based reactivity BUT speaking from experience, it only takes one bite or attack for a dog to be fearful for life - especially if that attack occurs during the 16 week socialisation period.

In females, it's generally much more clear cut as spaying prevents pyometra and womb cancer, but it can also lead to urinary incontinence.

First, my heart goes out to this poor lady and her family.
Secondly, as a dog owner myself, I cannot see why so many other dog owners need such huge animals and often more than one. Most of us do not live in large houses and many of us live in urban or suburban areas - totally unsuited to the larger breeds. This dog is our first dog and before we bought him, we had three criteria: 1. The dog should be non-shedding (allergies), 2. He should be of a breed that is known to be good natured, 3. He should not take up half a room by himself. We chose a fairly small terrier breed and the breeder vetted us very fully before we could buy him. We have had so much fun with him and he has a lovely nature. He thinks all humans are his friends. Having said that, we keep him on a short lead when walking past children so that they have no need to be afraid. Although it is true that it is the owners and not the dogs that bear responsibility, many of these “macho” breeds are not acquired just to be family pets. In addition, I do not understand the popularity of Jack Russells. These are a small breed but many are very yappy and snappy and are a big cause of dog bites.

One comment I saw on a local page was that the lady had gone in her garden to hang her washing out, or maybe bring it in.

That really got to me, because you can imagine her being happy with her garden and the spring weather we've been having and all. It's heartbreaking

Many dog walkers are over-indulgent of their animals and don't accept the fact that their behaviour can be irritating or frightening to others.
I live near a very large beach, a small part of which is designated dog-free during the warmer months, and dog owners whinge and moan no end about the fact that this small area is not for them (the area dogs can go on is vastly bigger) despite people pointing out that families having picnics don't want strange dogs bounding up to their food and children.

Yesterday I went for a walk on the part of the beach where dogs are allowed and watched an older couple with a dog, not on a lead, walking along chatting, completely oblivious, while their dog ran up to groups of people sitting on the beach on a couple of occasions, only responding by putting it on its lead when a man shouted at it. I'm sure they would regard themselves as responsible owners though

Do you think its acceptable that almost 8,000 people are admitted onto hospital wards every year with serious dog bite injuries? If not, what do you think should happen to bring that number down?

Of course I don't think it's acceptable, but I also don't think banning breeds due to a random set of physical measurements is going to help - especially considering we already do that and attacks are still high.

As for what I'd do - the following would be a good place to start imo:

• compulsory, easily accessible training classes for all owners.
• more enclosed, off-lead areas where owners can go and let their dogs off so they can run and play, and remain safe at the same time.
• stricter rules surrounding the sale of puppies - you shouldn't be able to buy a dog from a stranger on the internet or via Gumtree.
• eliminate (or at least restrict) commercial breeding as too many big breeders are nothing more than fancy puppy farms.
• more regulations surrounding dog training/behaviour - at the moment, anyone can call themselves a trainer and can use any number of methods on dogs, some of which are incredibly unhelpful and potentially dangerous.

@Flaxmeadow

Veterinari

So what to do then?

Do you, or anyone else, think its acceptable that almost 8,000 people are admitted onto hospital wards every year with serious dog bite injuries? If not, what do you think should happen to bring that number down?

No of course not. Pointing out the flaws in your proposal is not the same as condoning dog attacks

The solutions are complex and multi factorial and include crackdowns on irresponsible breeding/buying. Including by naice middle class families wanting a pandemic puppy. You only need to spend a short time on the doghouse to see how many posters make terrible purchasing decisions because they want a dog, and the whatsa-doodle at the school gates is on her third litter. It's backyard breeding without regard for temperament or health.
Mandatory licensing, inspection and registration of all breeders.

Ideally, mandatory ore-purchase education for anyone wanting to buy a puppy, and mandatory training classes after purchase. Better veterinary education in behavioural problems and how to prevent/address them.
Education in safe child-pet interactions as part of NCT/pre-natal education.

Implementation of 'deed not breed' legislation so that antisocial dog behaviour is dealt with regardless of breed.

Better prosecution of illegal dog activity such as fighting which is a big driver for many 'status' dogs. Also enforcement of drug/gang activity involving dogs fir similar reasons.

I cannot see why so many other dog owners need such huge animals and often more than one. Because sometimes they are the right breed for the owner's lifestyle, the same as your dog is right for yours.

Secondly, as a dog owner myself, I cannot see why so many other dog owners need such huge animals and often more than one. Most of us do not live in large houses and many of us live in urban or suburban areas - totally unsuited to the larger breeds

Giant breeds are generally fairly docile (St Bernards, Newfoundlands and Leonbergers come to mind) and don't really need any more indoor space than a smaller dog.

As for other larger breeds - labradors are fairly large and are consistently the most popular dog breed in this country. Golden retrievers are another. Both ranked as excellent family dogs who are great with children.

You can't unilaterally say that big dogs = bad family dogs, small dogs = good family dogs. The gentlest dog I know is a Newfoundland/Old English cross that weighs almost 70kg. The most unpleasant is a yappy Jack Russell who has attacked my own dog more than once and has bitten the owners DC more than once. It weighs not even 7kg and you can lift it in one hand.

QueenOfTheDoubleWide

Yes. I was out on a walk to a local beauty spot with a young relative. As we turned a corner, a dog about the size of a labrador came pelting towards us and knocked a young relative completely off his feet. He was upset and so another relative said, not in an aggressive way, "your dog just knocked my son over". The dog owner, and his friend, just walked past, chatting away to each other and completely ignored us and a visibly upset child.

I don't know what's more infuriating. Dog owners who snap back at you nastily or dog owners who pretend you don't exist

Four things need to happen -

1. All dangerous breeds should be banned, including cross breeds. 5 year grace period to ensure all dangerous dogs are neutered and no more are born. The remaining living dogs are licensed and their deaths recorded. Penalties for owning a dangerous dog is equivalent to owning another dangerous weapon.

1. Sentences for injuries caused by your dog are equivalent to you doing it yourself, ie your dog kills someone, you get a manslaughter sentence as it is gross negligence.

1. All dogs are on leads in public at all times, only exceptions being working dogs like sheepdogs.

1. All dogs have licences which include the genetics of the dog. All dogs are neutered unless the owner has a specific licence and pays for training on breeding dogs.

I love dogs but enough is enough.