Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

Interestingly for all the staffies are lovely people on the list are quite a few staffies that have killed people along with bull types and a few other dogs.

Any dog can bite but some have the potential to bite hard and kill. What type of aggressive animal goes for the neck anyway = a breed I personally would never want to own

@Flaxmeadow

How about a mix breed.

So is "mix breed" catered for in the law in dogs? What is the law on this "mixed breed" that you say is the name of a breed

Actually, it is catered for. A dog can be banned under the dangerous dogs act based on looks alone. If you have, for example, an American Bulldog or Mastiff-type dog that fits the description of a pitbull, it can be seized and you can be forced to leash/muzzle it in public for life.

"Whether your dog is a banned type depends on what it looks like, rather than its breed or name."

www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/banned-dogs

This happened not far from my MILs house, it’s awful. The owner is entirely at fault

@SpringTimeDream

Interestingly for all the staffies are lovely people on the list are quite a few staffies that have killed people along with bull types and a few other dogs.

Any dog can bite but some have the potential to bite hard and kill. What type of aggressive animal goes for the neck anyway = a breed I personally would never want to own

Lots of dogs go straight for the neck.

My beagle puppy was pinned to the floor by a Jack Russell and bitten on the neck.

List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

Have a look at the breeds that have killed the most people in the UK - some have killed small babies and others adults. The vast majority of the attacks where someone has ended up dying is BULL TYPE BREEDS.....

Yes. They are simply not worth the risk

I'd be daft not to agree that statement wouldn't I?

Of course a large dog can do more damage than a small dog but that automatically doesn't mean it will try to.

As I said I have a 43kg German Shepherd and a 10kg mixed breed. A bite by the GSD is likely to be far worse than a bite by midget dog.

Midget dog however is the more aggressive of the two.

Its why breed specific legislation is no good. Are you going to ban all large dogs? Over what size? Or do it by weight? Is a tall skinny dog OK?

@SpaceBatAngelDragon

This is an extract from a US non-profit created to educate about dangerous dog breeds. Clearly, they have an agenda, but they do use evidence based material/case law citations:

www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-faq.php#bitestyle

Q: Why do people say that pit bulls "don't let go?"

^Through selective breeding, pit bulls have developed enormous jaw strength, as well as a ruinous "hold and shake" bite style, designed to inflict the maximum damage possible on their victims. This bite trait delivered winning results in the fighting pit. When the Colorado Supreme Court upheld the Denver pit bull ban in 2005, the high court set aside characteristics that pit bulls displayed when they attack that differ from all other dog breeds. One of these characteristics was their lethal bite:
"[pit bulls] inflicted more serious wounds than other breeds. They tend to attack the deep muscles, to hold on, to shake, and to cause ripping of tissues. Pit bull attacks were compared to shark attacks." - Kory Nelson, One City's Experience15^

^Leading pit bull education websites, such as Pit Bull Rescue Central, encourage pit bull owners to be responsible and to always carry a "break stick" a tool used to pry open a pit bull's jaws in case their dog "accidentally" gets into a fight. These same websites also warn that using a break stick on any other dog breed may cause serious injury to the person.16 This is true because no other dog breed possesses the pit bull's tenacity combined with a "hold and shake" bite style.
One of the most powerful examples of a pit bull "not letting go" occurred in an Ohio courtroom. During the Toledo, Ohio v. Paul Tellings trial (Tellings was convicted of violating the City of Toledo's pit bull ordinance), Lucas County Dog Warden Tom Skeldon showed a videotape of a tranquilized pit bull hanging from a steel cable. The dog is essentially unconscious and still does not release its grip. At the time of the taping, the pit bull was being housed at the Lucas County Animal Shelter.^

Q: Do pit bulls bite more than other dog breeds?

^Depending upon the community in which you live and the ratio of pit bulls within it, yes and no. But whether a pit bull bites more or less than another dog breed is not the point. The issue is the acute damage a pit bull inflicts when it does choose to bite. The pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style causes severe bone and muscle damage, often inflicting permanent and disfiguring injuries. Moreover, once a pit bull starts an attack, firearm intervention may be the only way to stop it.
When analyzing dog bite statistics, it is important to understand what constitutes a bite. A single bite recorded and used in dog bite statistics is a bite that "breaks the skin." One bite by a poodle that leaves two puncture wounds is recorded the same way as a pit bull mauling, which can constitute hundreds of puncture wounds and extensive soft tissue loss. Despite the "quagmire" of dog bite statistics, pit bulls lead biting incidents across U.S. cities and counties.^

Wow that is awful.

I do find that when dogs with the thick necks come bounding up off lead I worry. Why don't the owners keep control over them? It couldn't occur if owners were responsible

Actually, it is catered for. A dog can be banned under the dangerous dogs act based on looks alone. If you have, for example, an American Bulldog or Mastiff-type dog that fits the description of a pitbull, it can be seized and you can be forced to leash/muzzle it in public for life.

"Whether your dog is a banned type depends on what it looks like, rather than its breed or name."

Yes and this is something I agree with, but this law needs to be massively extended to all dogs because breeders and owners constantly find new ways to get around it.
Being dishonest or lying about a dogs heritage
Finding new ways to create or label a breed

Strict measurement and enforcement of neck, head, jaw etc, and along with height and weight

A concern in my local park is a dog that is the size of a small pony. The owner has very obvious difficulty in walking this "breed" and the anxiety it causes means that some people now avoid the park altogether. This dog is totally unacceptable

Being dishonest or lying about a dogs heritage

Yes, I agree there should be strict regulations around how dogs can be advertised and sold. Absolutely. People should be 100% aware of the breed, type etc. of dog they're bringing into their homes.

Finding new ways to create or label a breed

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean breeding crosses to get around some of the restrictions?

Strict measurement and enforcement of neck, head, jaw etc, and along with height and weight

So you're going to let puppies grow to their full size (which could be when they're 2-3 years of age) then, what, kill them off because of nothing more than their weight or size of their head? How can you justify that to yourself?

A concern in my local park is a dog that is the size of a small pony. The owner has very obvious difficulty in walking this "breed" and the anxiety it causes means that some people now avoid the park altogether. This dog is totally unacceptable

No, the owner is unacceptable. Stop trying to punish the dog or the owners' shortfalls. If someone can't control their dog, then the dog should be re-homed and given a second chance with a more experienced owner. Not killed off because humans can't be bothered to put the work in.

We know which ones are dangerous and which aren’t. Stop pretending otherwise

The dog that is dangerous is the one that bites you. It doesn't matter what breed or size it is.

The woman whose dog killed the seal was a high earning law abiding professional

but in her case all that would have been needed was a requirement to keep the dog on a short lead in that area - give she was a law abiding legal professional, the chances are she would have kept it on a lead if it had been a legal requirement.

There really needs to be an assumption that you keep your dog on a lead unless told otherwise. Not the current other way round.

And I am glad to hear from the pp above who says that farmers shooting the odd dog worrying their livestock has actually had the desired effect and made dog owners follow the rules.

But we seem to have got to a place where the "ideal" is mum, dad, two kids, dog, two cars of which one is a 4wd, two holidays a year in Spain. Dogs are living beings, they should not be treated as accessories so true

@poppycat10

We know which ones are dangerous and which aren’t. Stop pretending otherwise

The dog that is dangerous is the one that bites you. It doesn't matter what breed or size it is.

Look at the list of fatal dog attacks someone linked earlier and tell me otherwise. It absolutely does matter.

@littlepattilou

Yes it's awful. I wondered what was going on in Rowley Regis with the police presence around. It was all over social media earlier but I wasn't sure what had happened.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-56617182

Tragic thing to happen.

And yes, I agree, it's about time much stricter rules were made for keeping certain dogs.

These 2 dogs weren't border collies or red setters were they?

They were pit bulls.

The bloody dogs need banning from the country. Every one that is born now needs sterilising at birth so they can become obsolete. (And several other 'dangerous dogs' can go with it too.)

Some dogs should NOT be in residential homes and residential areas.

I know it's not the dog's fault blah blah blah........... It's the owner's fault, but it's ALWAYS the same type of person who owns them! ALWAYS.

It’s the “same type of person” that wants sterilising at birth.

@UsedUpUsername 3 of the (44) fatalities listed with details were on young babies (3.5 months, 8 days and 3 weeks were by small breed terriers. One of which was a sustained attack lasting 20 minutes.

@Flaxmeadow

I don't really see your logic. There are many many dogs capable of EASILY injuring or killing a person that are not bully breeds. The people who currently have staffies and don't train them would just move onto one of those other breeds. Dodgy estates would be full of rotties and german shepherds instead of staffies. Injuries and deaths would remain the same

So you're saying that if dogs with powerful jaws and neck muscles, enough to maim or kill, were banned then nothing would change?

I don't see that logic

Okay sorry, I thought you were talking about a ban on bully breeds only. You're actually talking about a ban on many, many breeds. Basically any breed that reaches 25kg +

[quote BlueEyesWhiteDragon]@UsedUpUsername 3 of the (44) fatalities listed with details were on young babies (3.5 months, 8 days and 3 weeks were by small breed terriers. One of which was a sustained attack lasting 20 minutes.[/quote]
That was a terrible sentence!

What I was trying to say was that of the 44 fatalities listed with details, 3 of them (7%) were by small breed terriers on very young children. One of which was believed to be a 20 minute attack!

No-one is advocating banning those dogs on the basis that their bite strength is low but obviously they can also be a danger.

We are also focusing her on deaths which are miniscule. What we actually need is more details on the breakdown of bites, that information would best guide how legislation should be changed if it needs to be. Of the 150 bites a week, how many are a one off bite where the person has sensibly gone to the hospital to get checked out V how many are serious injuries? How many are pitbull types v labs v small dog? There is a huge difference.

The reason animal abuse and mistreatment is rife, and incidents like these, is that animals per se, are too easy to get hold of. Bought often by the thoughtless and stupid in moments of whim, or fits of whatever, and something unfortunate happens as a result. High time the penalties for abuse where heightened, and animals of all kinds either licenced or made harder to obtain in some way, esp by those unfit to look after their needs, and keep them and others from harm.

One chased me and my daughter last year, I had to pick her up and hope for the best, it then went to the jogger across the road who had about 5 seconds before shrugged his shoulders at me and tried to jog on. I would like to say serves him right but what I actually did was find the irresponsible owners, I know their house and the dog was always wandering round, they come and got it, I later on rang the police to let them know it was dangerous. The police officer did go to see and speak to them but they denied having a dog(it was outside wandering by again) however I have seen it out a lot less, thank god. The owners are bloody awful, they just don't care.

That list of dogs on Wikipedia showing the deaths by dog type shows clearly that the pit bulls and Staffies account for a significant proportion of the deaths in the last ten years.
Poor woman. She didn't need to die like this.

So you're going to let puppies grow to their full size (which could be when they're 2-3 years of age) then, what, kill them off because of nothing more than their weight or size of their head? How can you justify that to yourself?

Buy I didn't say that did I? This is what I said. You actually quoted it.
"Strict measurement and enforcement of neck, head, jaw etc, and along with height and weight"

To be clearer, I would like to see dogs of a certain jaw, neck muscle size, weight and height made sterile now. Paid for by owners and immediate licensing of all dogs l, which would pay for those unable to afford it and pay for other safety measures

Also as I said immediate law on dogs on leads in all public places. Also laws on chaining and securing dogs in gardens and yards. Height and type of fencing (metal)

None of this will happen though. People will not even keep dogs on leads in public places and you can never get an answer why dog owners will not do this simple thing

By "made sterile now" I mean neutered, unable to breed. This would phase out the dogs capable of inflicting death and injury

Buy I didn't say that did I? This is what I said. You actually quoted it.
"Strict measurement and enforcement of neck, head, jaw etc, and along with height and weight"

To be clearer, I would like to see dogs of a certain jaw, neck muscle size, weight and height made sterile now. Paid for by owners and immediate licensing of all dogs l, which would pay for those unable to afford it and pay for other safety measures

That wasn't clear at all in your post - but thanks for clarifying.

I'm confused as to how you would enforce it, though - I mean, at what age would you deem a dog to be fully grown (it differs by breed)? Also, some dogs benefit health-wise from remaining entire, as neutering can have a negative impact on temperament. This is especially true for male dogs.

Also as I said immediate law on dogs on leads in all public places. Also laws on chaining and securing dogs in gardens and yards. Height and type of fencing (metal)

This is just bonkers. You can't place such stringent controls on people's private properties. How on EARTH do you expect to enforce something like this, anyway?

None of this will happen though.

Good. None of what you suggest is beneficial for dogs in terms of their general behaviour, exercise or wellbeing.

People will not even keep dogs on leads in public places and you can never get an answer why dog owners will not do this simple thing

Because the law states dogs should be kept under control, not on a lead, unless in a designated "on-lead" area.

@MyDogTails

That list of dogs on Wikipedia showing the deaths by dog type shows clearly that the pit bulls and Staffies account for a significant proportion of the deaths in the last ten years. Poor woman. She didn't need to die like this.

That list is horrific. I don't know how the Kennel Club can recommend Staffies as the best family dogs in the light of the statistical evidence.

What's also clear is that the sentencing and banning of dog ownership is woefully inadequate. If the dog causes death or serious life changing injury, I would like to see a mandatory custodial sentence and a life ban on ownership.

I'm confused as to how you would enforce it, though - I mean, at what age would you deem a dog to be fully grown (it differs by breed)?

This would be decided by vets or similar qualified .

Also, some dogs benefit health-wise from remaining entire, as neutering can have a negative impact on temperament. This is especially true for male dogs

That's unfortunate, but we have a problem where 150 people a week are admitted onto hospital wards with dog bite injuries. Many of them children and some with life changing injuries, and that number is increasing each year

This is just bonkers. You can't place such stringent controls on people's private properties. How on EARTH do you expect to enforce something like this, anyway

Financially enforced by dog licensing. A £1000 first payment or maybe higher even and then a lower one each year maybe. Something like that

We already have laws, rules and regulations on property and safety so yes we can

Good. None of what you suggest is beneficial for dogs in terms of their general behaviour, exercise or wellbeing.

This is more about protecting people. People who want to be able to hang their washing out in their own back garden for example

Because the law states dogs should be kept under control, not on a lead, unless in a designated "on-lead" area

That needs to change. It's too vague. A blanket ban on unleashed digs in public places is simple and has no grey area

Bull breeds should be banned, look at the fatal dog attacks in the UK:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

Sick of staffie owners especially going on about "nanny dogs"