Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

Dogs should be kept on leads at all times, unless they are on enclosed land designated for dogs to run freely on.

I have a beautiful park near me, with children’s play areas and ponds with swans and geese etc. There are signs saying ‘keep your dog on a lead’, but dog owners seem to think ‘my dogs so lovely, he/she is surely exempt’.

My relative is one of those people. We take his dog for a walk, one of those fashion mongrels, and he lets it off leash. I point out the signs, but my relative Pooh-poohs it ‘oh, Fluffy has tremendous recall. He’s so friendly and dopey. Wouldn’t hurt a fly’.

Fluffy proceeds to run towards groups of children and adults “to say hello! He won’t hurt you” and he steals a ball that some kids are playing with “haha! He’s such a naughty dog, who’s a naughty dog”.

Then suddenly the dog bolts. And it’s grabbed a squirrel. “Fluffy! Put it down! Put it down”. Dog is no longer listening. It’s ragging the squirrel.

Relative manages to catch up to dog and manages to fight squirrel off dog. Squirrel is alive, just, but clearly in shock and injured. Relative is shaken, but puts squirrel inside a bush and says “give him a few quiet minutes and he’ll be fine”.

I doubt it.

Fluffy is back on his leash...until next time.

The number of times my relative has complained about OTHER irresponsible dog owners. It’s like they are completely blind to the fact their own dog is an excitable animal that doesn’t comprehend human social rules and is therefore liable to be unpredictable.

If you are a dog owner who doesn’t think the rules apply to them. You ARE an irresponsible dog owner and there are so freaking many of you about, that terrible “accidents” like what happened to this old lady will continue to happen.

And btw, you might not be worried about your dog attacking people, but do not let your dog run up to people ‘to say hello’. I don’t care how nice you think your dog is. I had my legs torn to shreds as a child in a dog attack and if your dog runs up to me, it’s likely to get kicked in the head. I terrified of the things and will fight for my life.

I wouldn't support a ban on staffies. I'd never have one myself (too big and too strong for me), but I love them. I've known many, and every one has been adorable and had lovely temperament.

I would. And yes, I do acknowledge that they are lovely dogs and most are as soft as they come.

They are, however, trained as fighting dogs. They can be as placid as they come for years, but if they home in on something (i.e. make a mistake) they turn instantly, on a whiplash.

And if, just once, they do this (as they are bred to do) those shark-like jaws will lock on like a vice and not let go. They can do incredible damage: more so than a dog like a dachshund or even a Labrador which are statistically more likely to bite.

IMO, they are dangerous. Despite the myriad owners all talking about what a softie 'my Tinker' is. They're all like that.

Until they're not.

Sorry - 'bred' as fighting dogs, not trained.

I have a dog, medium sized. Lovely dog and well socialised but we never let her off the lead where there are people around (and if she is let off, you can see far around to make sure no one is about). It’s not a nice feeling to have a dog running up to you - I wouldn’t want to make anyone feel scared. Plus I could never guarantee that she wouldn’t react aggressively for some random reason.

My heart goes out to the lady and her family - absolutely terrible. The owner should be prosecuted fully.

@novaissuper

I think it's nuts to have that type of dog around a newborn, but of course, your dog would never a hurt a fly, they never do.

You are being sneery regarding my dog based on something so irrelevant like her breed.

My dog and newborn are always supervised when together but this is not because she's a staffie but because she's a dog and all dogs can be unpredictable regardless of their breed. I don't view dogs through rose tinted classes as I Appreciate they are all capable of biting but my dog is no more or less likely to attack because of her breed. Aggression towards people is not a breed specific trait.

Did you know that the kennel club only recommends two breeds of dog for families with young children, and that one of those dog breeds is the Staffordshire Bill Terrier? It's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me.

Sorry if you think I'm sneering at you, but I am just sick of this judgement around certain breeds of dogs. It's nonsensical. Canine behavioural professionals and animal welfare organisations all take the same line on this. I think they understand more about dogs than MN.

It's actually a bit shocking, because it's really not controversial among dog experts - breed specific legislation is not effective. And there are other number of dogs that are as or more deserving of wariness than various bully breeds.

The fact that "pit bull" is a pretty indefinable category, so much so that laws have to go to bizarre lengths to try and do so, is a sign of the problem.

We are saturated with dog ownership at the moment. Many of these dogs cross breeds with temperaments unknown. Many of these dogs in homes where they haven’t been trained and then passed along and passed along.

I honestly think it’s a time bomb. The school run for my kids school is chockablock with kids and dogs. I saw a dog lunge for a preschooler the other day and not playfully either! Yet the owner still brings it on the school run amongst lots and lots of kids. It’s completely bizarre and I’m waiting for someone to get bitten.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks no dog can “lock” its jaws.

The issue is that no-one thinks their dog is capable of attacking a seal or deer or sheep or human.

Personally I am well aware that any of my dogs are perfectly capable of doing the above. Our biggest dog is a 43kg working line GSD. His bite strength is huge. The damage he could do to any of the above frankly is astronomical. Could he kill someone? Yes. Would he? In the wrong circumstances it is a small possibility.

Our smallest dog is a cross of various breeds. She's just over 10kg. Could she kill? I think she'd struggle unless it was a very young child or she got lucky on an important vein. Would she? Tbh she is far more reactive than Bear and far more likely to try ....

As a responsible dog owner, all of mine are trained, I'm aware of the risks of them both in general and specifically to each dog and react accordingly. The little one for example never goes off lead unless in our own enclosed fields because her recall is not consistent.

The issue is not specific breeds its people. The penalties for having an out of control / dangerous dog need to be far harsher and people need to accept that they have to control their own dog.

But then I do think there is a general trend in society emerging where people feel entitled to do what they want without care of the implications on a wider society - see covid rules, letting dogs run amok, feeding other peoples horses, leaving litter all over the countryside to name a few that have impacted us personally. I don't know what the answer is to that!

They used to be bred fighting

That sums it up then.

I keep thinking about the meetup in the park. They looked terrifying.

For the pp who asked for the link

www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/be-dog-safe/#:~:text=Figures%20show%20an%20average%20of,23%2C078%20between%202015%20and%202018.&text=Latest%20NHS%20Digital%20figures%20show,bitten%20or%20struck%20by%20dogs.

Latest figures show NHS hospitals have seen an almost 5% increase in dog-related admissions between 2015 and 2018.

Figures show an average of around 7,693 admissions to NHS hospitals a year for dog-related injuries, with a total of 23,078 between 2015 and 2018.

you know that the kennel club only recommends two breeds of dog for families with young children, and that one of those dog breeds is the Staffordshire Bill Terrier? It's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me

A Staffordshire Bull Terrier is NOT a pitbull. The pitbull was developed in America from the staffie but it’s bigger, stronger, notorious for attacking children and therefore banned in the U.K.

Unfortunately it’s near impossible to determine a staffie X pitbull cross from a pure staffie or a staffie X other legal breed cross as they look so similar. Staffie features tend to dominate even in pitbull crosses. So many illegal pitbull X staffie crosses are bred in the U.K. and passed off as purebred staffies or staffie X spaniel etc.

If you have a bull breed you don’t know if it’s part pitbull or not unless you pay for genetic testing (or you bought it from a trusted breeder with KC registration).

Was watching a police type program with husband last week, interceptors i think.

Police dog handler had dog on lead, went down a lane to secure a rear of a house, a random staffy came walking down off the lead, no owner in sight and attacked the police dog, big fight.
Luckily the police dog got the upper hand and just the aggressor was injured.
The dog received veterinary treatment but was returned to its owner with no fine etc.

But the narrator said the dog attacked again 2 months later and had to be destroyed.
Was it the dogs fault? No, if it was kept under control it would still be alive.

I see people all the time with loose dogs, lead normally worn round the owners neck??

Luckily my dogs are big and can defend themselves if needed, we also started wearing a body cam, just in case an off lead dog approaches and something happens.

what are pit bulls for

As the name suggests. Pit bulls were bred, for hundreds years, to be thrown into a pit to fight another pit bull. Bred to be the best able to kill.

The pit would be constructed with walls to stop the dogs escaping. Men would place bets on one of the dogs to "win", then watch the cruelty ensue. Illegal now but it still happens

Why anyone would want an animal in their home with a even tiny part of this genetic heritage/family history is completely beyond me.

A Staffordshire Bull Terrier is NOT a pitbull

Many Staffies have pit bull in them. Staffies were also bred to fight in pits

@Flaxmeadow

what are pit bulls for

As the name suggests. Pit bulls were bred, for hundreds years, to be thrown into a pit to fight another pit bull. Bred to be the best able to kill.

The pit would be constructed with walls to stop the dogs escaping. Men would place bets on one of the dogs to "win", then watch the cruelty ensue. Illegal now but it still happens

Why anyone would want an animal in their home with a even tiny part of this genetic heritage/family history is completely beyond me.

No they weren't. They were bred to bait bulls not specifically to fight each other.,

Many Staffies have pit bull in them. Staffies were also bred to fight in pits

Exactly my point. Many pitbull crosses are passed off as staffie crosses.

The only way to solve the issue IMO is to seize and ban all bull breeds or put all bull breeds on the banned list so they require a licence and muzzling plus leashing in public.

Dog fighting still goes on illegally. Pitbull crosses are preferred over staffies due to their increased size, strength, pain tolerance and aggression. But yes the Staffie was originally bred for fighting: first bull baiting (it had to be agile yet strong enough to pin a bull down by its nose and hold it there to win, hence the Staffordshire Bull Terrier name. I think staffies were around before bull baiting became popular, as they replaced the mastiff in bear baiting. When bull and bear baiting were banned, dog fights soared in popularity so yes, the Staffie was thrown into a pit and expected to fight to the death.

There’s massive amounts of money in underground dog fighting (including breeding from ‘champions’ and betting). Even a ‘Staffie’ with papers may have false papers, in order for it to be brought into the country. If you have a staffie or Staffie cross there’s a good chance it has some pitbull in it.

I think some people are getting confused by legislation in some US states that includes Staffordshire Bull Terriers in the Pit Bull group.
They are a distinct breed.

Could he kill someone? Yes. Would he? In the wrong circumstances it is a small possibility

Madness.

They were bred to bait bulls not specifically to fight each other

They were bred to fight bulls yes. In a pit. They had to grab the bull by it’s nose, force it to the ground and hold its head down to win a fight (bull baiting).

But when this sport was banned they were used and bred for dog fighting instead.

No they weren't. They were bred to bait bulls not specifically to fight each other

Partly. I notice you haven't explained to the thread what the practice and tradition of "baiting a bull" was.

Pit bulls, and staffies etc, were also bred to fight other dogs to fight in pits, in some cases a fight to the death. It was considered a sport and men would place bets on which dog would "win". This is a historical fact and no amount of "fur baby" and "hes a sweetie" distractions will ever change that

www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/banned-dogs

So why were there 30 odd of them in a park?

Dogs bred for dog fighting tend to be more amenable to handling by humans than many other breeds. They had to be, because you might need to reach in the pit and grab your dog without it turning on you.
Need intensive, careful socialisation to make them able to get on with other dogs, but they are no more likely to attack a human than any other breed if their owner isn’t an arsehole.

@randomer

www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/banned-dogs

So why were there 30 odd of them in a park?

Was it a Staffie owners meet up?

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Every death is tragic.

There are 5.5 million dogs in the UK, and they kill 3-5 people per year. The risk of being killed by a dog are only marginally higher than being killed by lightning (2 per year).

This. The reason these incidents make the news is because they’re rare.

This is a historical fact and no amount of "fur baby" and "hes a sweetie" distractions will ever change that

What’s your point? My dog was originally bred to retrieve game on a shoot. I don’t support blood sports so she won’t be doing that.My family dogs growing up were originally bred to go down holes and scrag / kill rats. We didn’t use them for that.