Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

@Flaxmeadow

No they weren't. They were bred to bait bulls not specifically to fight each other

Partly. I notice you haven't explained to the thread what the practice and tradition of "baiting a bull" was.

Pit bulls, and staffies etc, were also bred to fight other dogs to fight in pits, in some cases a fight to the death. It was considered a sport and men would place bets on which dog would "win". This is a historical fact and no amount of "fur baby" and "hes a sweetie" distractions will ever change that

No problem. They were supposed to grab hold of the bulls nose and pin/wrestle it to the ground. I think they did it with bears and other large animals (I think ive seen horses mentioned) too. They had to be brave, smart and tenacious. And strong.

As baiting was banned yes it did turn to dog fighting, but also one of the prime desirable traits in Staffordshire Bull Terriers was that they were not aggressive to people. Ones that were were PTS. You don't want the dog you are handling to be prone to biting you.

This. The reason these incidents make the news is because they’re rare

On average in this country around 150 people a WEEK, many of them children and many with life changing injuries, are admitted INTO hospital with dog bite injuries

Do you think this is an acceptable state if affairs?

@SleepOhHowIMissYou

I appreciate how responsible you are with your sighthound. You sound like my kind of owner. It really pisses me off when owners let their dogs terrorise local wildlife or chase my cats!

Bull breeds like the staffie were initially bred for bull baiting. Blood sports were banned and the dogs went on to be used in dog fighting. Yes, I am aware that dog fighting is a blood sport but it's much easier to do that under the radar in dingy basements and backyards. They weren't exactly bred specifically for dog fighting. However I have heard behaviourists say that their dog fighting history means they have a tendency to be reactive to other dogs. Obviously every dog is an individual and lots of staffies get on great with other dogs, including mine but it's just something to be aware of.

What people fail to understand about these 'fighting dogs' is a potential to be aggressive towards other dogs is not the same as aggression towards people. The two are not transferable. In the same way that your sighthound's disposition to chase and kill a small furry does not mean it is liable attack a child. Aggression towards people is not a breed specific trait. I cannot make this clearer.

In fact there is some argument to suggest that these dogs are actually less likely to be aggressive to people. These dogs, historically favoured by with working classes often lived in overcrowded accommodation with lots of children, any dog that showed aggression to its handler would have been pts.

Yes, staffies do have strong jaws but they don't even make it into the top 20 of all dogs with regards to bite strength. And lots of people do still believe that they have a jaw locking mechanism. Yes, staffies will do more damage than say a yorkie if they did attack but so would a German shepherd or a Doberman. If you want to go down the road of banning these dogs based on what they could do should they attack then it would be nonsensical to stop at bull breeds. Even a Labrador can give an extremely nasty bite, they are after all large hunting dogs.
I think there is some classism at play here as large hunting dogs don't receive nearly the same coverage when things go wrong and they attack someone.

At the end of the day if you advocate to ban all bull breeds then this should logically be extended to all large dogs. Or you could stop focusing on breed and start looking at promoting responsible ownership including a legislative change as the dangerous dogs act isn't fit for purpose and seldom enforced.

I have a staffie cross and three cats and a newborn all happy cohabiting under the same roof right now. It makes my skin crawl reading some of these comments, not yours specifically, but the ignorance and the hatred directed at these dogs is just sad.

Tell that to the family of this poor woman.

In fact there is some argument to suggest that these dogs are actually less likely to be aggressive to people

Perhaps someone should explain this to the 150 people a week, including many children, who are admitted onto hospital wards with dog bite injuries

No its not acceptable. However there is a huge difference in what an have caused the bites and so what you would need to do to stop them.

Banning specific breeds is not the answer.

‘you know that the kennel club only recommends two breeds of dog for families with young children, and that one of those dog breeds is the Staffordshire Bill Terrier? It's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me’
I can’t find any evidence of this.

Well, if death from dog attacks is only a few per year with a mere 150 people per week are admitted to hospital from being attacked by dogs, I really can't see what all the fuss is about.

With those 'rookie numbers', there's no need for people to control their dogs in public at all....🤔

I was bitten as a child by a JRT and a Dalmatian. Should we ban those breeds? Or recognise that children and dogs need careful and responsible supervision when together?

The issue is stupid owners. Full stop.
I have dogs. I also have two young nephews. Never would I ever leave any of my dogs alone with either of the boys. That's my duty of care as both aunt and dog owner.
They are walked on leads.
The blame does not lie with dogs, it lies with stupid, selfish arsehole owners who don't train their dogs, can't handle them and let these dreadful things happen.
RIP to the poor lady in the story. That's truly horrific.

FFS a dog bred to killl animals, owned by morons is more risky than a JRT.

I don't think a JRT would kill a woman.

Its pathetic.

That’s not what the OP is calling for though, just stricter laws.

@randomer

FFS a dog bred to killl animals, owned by morons is more risky than a JRT.

I don't think a JRT would kill a woman.

Its pathetic.

I was answering OP’s post about children bitten by dogs and requiring hospitalization. As a child bitten by a JRT because of my own stupid actions (disturbed them while they were asleep) I saw it as a relevant reply

@HikeForward
Are you aware that dog attacks have actually been on the rise since pit bulls were banned via the dangerous dogs act 1991?

www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/bsl?fbclid=IwAR2NAo8HUn69rFT1ceT-ZMKAwn9mXsPIASpMnze1I40YJ8q0042m_ZNJLwc

A pit bull is no more or less dangerous than a staffie, GS, rottie, Akita, the list goes on... they are all large powerful dogs.

Banning them was a knee jerk reaction to some high profile incidents but it has not actually managed to reduce dog attacks in any meaningful way.

The legislation in itself is very cruel as it has resulted in many lovely balanced well tempered dogs whom have never harmed anyone being ripped away from their families and pts. It's heart breaking. All of this cruelty and it's not even effective at keeping the public safe.

How about instead of adding more dogs to the banned breeds list we stop focusing on dog breed and start focusing on owners and holing them accountable?

@Poorlykitten the laws are there. Dogs must be on a lead in designated areas. They must be under control in public. Certain breeds are banned.
The issue is that these laws aren’t enforced. Dogs that out of control are repeatedly so. Irresponsible owners don’t step up and change their behaviour.
It takes time and effort to train a dog. It takes vigilance and consideration of others to walk one. Mine are made to stand and wait out of the way of cyclists, runners, anyone looking unsure of them (they are giant!)
Too many people are stupid and or selfish.

@Flaxmeadow

In fact there is some argument to suggest that these dogs are actually less likely to be aggressive to people

Perhaps someone should explain this to the 150 people a week, including many children, who are admitted onto hospital wards with dog bite injuries

@Flaxmeadow I'm not arguing that we don't need tighter regulation around dog ownership. I am simply trying to explain how focusing on breed is not an effective way to achieve this.

@Flaxmeadow

There are 5.5 million dogs in the UK, and they kill 3-5 people per year. The risk of being killed by a dog are only marginally higher than being killed by lightning (2 per year).

But it isn't just about the deaths, its also the many thousands of injuries, some life changing, and the accompanying trauma.

A few years ago a man died in a sustained attack that lasted hours because no one could get near enough to get the dog off him. This IIRC was a dog that had wandered into his house from the street

I would like to see more breeds banned and dogs on a lead in all public places for a start

@Poorlykitten Yes OP is.

I don't actually have an issue with stricter laws but first there needs to be more understanding on the bites / causes.

I don't agree with this but OK lets say ban all bull dog breeds and insist all dogs are leashed or muzzled outside of your own home.

If of the 150 bites a week 140 are non bull breeds in your own home / garden how has it helped?

The issue is in training dogs and training owners to train their dogs.

‘you know that the kennel club only recommends two breeds of dog for families with young children, and that one of those dog breeds is the Staffordshire Bill Terrier? It's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me’

Some people talk such shit, usually dog owners who think their little furbaby is exempt from good dog ownership.

The kennel club does say staffies are a good family dog. But also recommends Boxers, Poodles amongst others

But I would agree the laws are not strict enough and need to be looked at again.

Just as a PSA: if you are ever bitten on the hand by a dog, it's instinct to try and pull away, but don't do this - try and push your hand into the dog's mouth. That will make it gag, and it will open it's mouth.

Source: my late mum's labrador cross, which would attack randomly on a whim, poor thing, as my horrible late father used to kick it a lot.

@BlueEyesWhiteDragon but this is what I’ve been saying all along. Licenses, compulsory puppy classes and training/education for owners. Home checks. Stricter laws on breeding. Dogs on leads in most areas unless designated dog walking areas.

"if you are ever bitten on the hand by a dog, it's instinct to try and pull away, but don't do this - try and push your hand into the dog's mouth"

Oh aye yeah

@Saucery

I was bitten as a child by a JRT and a Dalmatian. Should we ban those breeds? Or recognise that children and dogs need careful and responsible supervision when together?

Ok but whenever I read about someone dying horribly in a dog attack it’s almost always some pit bull/staffie mix. Occasionally Akita or husky.

We know which ones are dangerous and which aren’t. Stop pretending otherwise

People always talk about the scary looking breeds, but (I think) it's actually Labradors that have the highest number of attacks in the UK.

But that’s only because they are the most popular/most bred therefore highest numerical number of dogs recorded in the U.K.

"People always talk about the scary looking breeds, but (I think) it's actually Labradors that have the highest number of attacks in the UK."

And if there were as many pitbulls as there are labs that wouldn't be the case would it?