What is this behaviour by teacher?

[accesstheinternet]

Class of 9 and 10 year olds, about to go into lockdown, the class is talking about what it will be like and asking questions. Suddenly the teacher says out of the blue, first time anything like this has happened "and who will miss Charlie and his bad temper?"

Charlie is shocked and upset and the class sort of murmured "me" and Charlie's mother asks the teacher what was up when she saw her and the teacher said that she had spoken to Charlie and all was fine, apparently Charlie had lost his temper because someone had pushed him in the playground.

Then the next day Charlie comes out in floods of tears, saying that he had written down an instruction he thought had to be written down, the teacher had starting berating him and saying only he would do that, and encouraged the whole class to mock him, he had become upset at the berating and some of the class had laughed.

The teacher is normally fine.

@msbehavin I don't think you are cruel, and I don't think my old English teacher was cruel. I think she misjudged that joke and I can see why, my point was that she could never have known about my home life, literally no one did at that time and that was deliberate. As I say, she was very popular (and actually excellent in terms of her teaching), she didn't need to gently tease any of us. We knew she cared, which is why I always found her teasing somewhat at odds with that ethos. Maybe it's because I grew up in a household where the only experience of 'teasing' was being belittled and was used to goad me into tears then laugh at how pathetic I was, who knows.

I hope you have a restful holiday. I just wanted you to consider that in some children's cases, you don't really know what is going on at home, and that for many children that is a deliberate choice.

@CurseMyTinyThumbs

Seeing other people's stories here is a bit cathartic… who knew how many of us there were out there who put a good-natured face on our upset when we were the butt of teachers' "running jokes"?

Yes, and hopefully it might help make some teachers more aware.

Introvertedbuthappy thank you for sharing your experience so eloquently
The final words of your post really stood out to me, about the teacher being
in a power dynamic where they hold all the cards.

Sounds like Charlie has problems regulating his emotions and is prone to exploding regularly. I expect the teacher made a good-natured comment to him and he exploded and overreacted and told his mum she'd publicly humiliated him when i very much doubt that's what happened.

Also as a teachet working abroad these responses are quite enlightening as to why nobody wants to teach in the UK anymore and why UK schools and students are doing so badly 😳 stop overreacting to everything and encourage your children to behave well?

Actually, labelling behaviour is the opposite to encouraging a child to behave well.

I think it's never ok for a teacher to mock students, even in a harmless way. You never know what a child can take to heart and things stick with children for a long time.
I would try and get the full story. But these people asking if Charlie is bad tempered and naughty as if that justifies it is wrong, teachers joining in with laughing at flaws at children or even orchestrating it is completely out of order and I wouldn't stand for it. Children need encouragement, not a whole class laughing with the teacher leading it when they're supposed to be supportive.

[quote msbehavin]@IsIgnoranceBliss - I’m so very sorry for your bad experiences of teachers who didn’t take the time to get to know and understand you.

However, not all teachers are the same as the ones you had.

Teaching has moved on a lot in the past twenty years. Our awareness of children’s emotional needs in particular is streets ahead of when I was at school.

I know each and every student I teach very well. I know about their home lives. I know if they have any additional needs and what difficulties that entails for them. I tailor all my interactions with the children I teach based on what I know about their backgrounds. I know who can’t handle banter or sarcasm and obviously don’t use those types of humour with them or single them out as I know they’d hate it. I do know what I’m doing and how to handle a class. I’ve had a lot of years’ experience. I appreciate this discussion has resurfaced bad memories for you, but I don’t appreciate being accused of being something I’m not.

I’m a highly trained, highly experienced professional who loves the kids I teach. I’m not a bully. I’m not a monster. Please stop calling me one.[/quote]
I struggle to believe you “know” all the pupils you teach, as well as you say you do. As a secondary teacher you must teach over 150 pupils each week, therefore your claim to know everything about every one of your pupils’ home life, additional needs and how that affects them, seems unlikely. You may think you know what is going on in the home life of each child you teach, but in many cases you will only know what that child and their family want you to know.

As a parent I don’t expect my child’s teachers to “love” them, indeed I find that a very strange thing to say! I expect my child’s teachers to treat them with respect and to abstain from the sarcasm and banter you seem to think is acceptable! Most importantly, I want a teacher to teach them the subject they are qualified to teach, not to subject them to their amateur psychology!

Actually, labelling behaviour is the opposite to encouraging a child to behave well

Leaving aside this particular case, labelling behaviour allows the possibility of change. People can change what they do.

I'm guessing back story. But based on OP's first post Charlie sound like 'that child' and parent of Charlie sounds like 'that parent'. Happy to be proved wrong but need more info.

Well the OP hasn’t come back with any more info so we can’t really get to the bottom of Charlie’s situation.

However @msbehavin. - I really do get where you were coming in your first reply and think a little bit of light banter in school (particularly secondary) is normal and can help students/children see teachers as ‘normal’ and help form relationships with them. Perhaps in some cases to the point that results in some children confiding in their teachers on things they can’t do with their parents.

However, on the hand, there are risks that come with this approach in ‘getting it wrong’. that can have consequences and you may not be aware of.them.

For example, my friend’s eldest dd had comments made about how much makeup she wore and one even called it out when her youngest dd started at the school and they asked her if she had any siblings in school. In fact, friend’s eldest dd had major image and confidence issues which she used the makeup to hide behind and that comment to the youngest dd didn’t hep things. Things have now escalated into a downwards decline resulting in a suicide attempt and a full on eating disorder.

My youngest dd was totally misunderstood by her year 4 teacher and they definitely didn’t see the side of her in school that I saw at home. They saw her as over-confident and full of herself which she could be but they totally missed the sensitive side to her and she had an awful year which caused a lot of stress and upset. Fortunately her last two years in the school have been lovely in comparison (COVID aside obviously!) and have undone the negative experience of yr 4

Your later comment on how you know the children, their home life, who can take it etc . I’m sorry but you cannot possibly know that so please don’t stop the light banter as it will help a lot of students, but please direct it across the class and not single out children (I’m not saying you do btw) and please be aware that you will never truly know what impact to a child a comment made will make either way.

@msbehavin

I'm a teacher (in secondary) and good natured, gentle teasing of students and their foibles is part of creating a warm classroom environment. I will rib kids for always being late, always forgetting things - along the lines of declaring it to be a miracle if a kid who's always late turns up on time, telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong, etc. It's all done in love, the kids know I don't mean anything by it, and they love having a giggle at themselves and each other.

I'm wondering whether what Charlie (presumably your child) has reported back to you is a misunderstanding of a teacher trying to make a joke to show Charlie that their earlier temper tantrum was forgiven - 'we won't miss Charlie's temper, will we', said in a kind voice with a wink and a little pat on the shoulder would be the circumstances I'd expect this comment to have been said in. Likewise with the writing down the wrong thing - if I had a child in my class who always does things like that, I'd probably make a joke of it too- 'oh dear, never mind, trust you Charlie!' - said in a lighthearted and affectionate tone, showing it didn't matter and that I found their behaviour endearing.

I'm wondering whether Charlie has misinterpreted the teacher's behaviour and has read what was meant to be kindness as being nasty. Some kids really don't understand sarcasm, for example. If being unkind is totally out of character for the teacher, I'd be more inclined to think this is the explanation.

I am wondering why you're asking this now, as it was clearly an incident that happened a few weeks ago (before lockdown). Also, if it was a few days before lockdown, do bear in mind stress and anxiety levels amongst both teachers and children would have been high. Perhaps the teacher did snap. Perhaps Charlie overreacted. The truth could be somewhere in the middle. I'd contact the teacher, and arrange a meeting to discuss Charlie's feelings about the incidents. Even if it's all been a misunderstanding, the teacher needs to know how Charlie interpreted the comments so that they can adapt their communication with him accordingly in future.

Totally agree this is not OK.

I had this from several teachers in high school about my attendance (that it was a miracle I was at school) infront of students, who then started to join in, and I dreaded the fucking comments every single time I managed to get to school (because I really, really wanted to do well, my results had always been promising at school). There was ALWAYS a big fuss made when I walked into the classroom because holy shit, I was 'in', and not absent.

I was off school so much because I had a mentally ill parent who kept making attempts on their life, I was the only one at home with no support and had tremendous guilt that if I attended, she would be successful and it would be my fault. I was struggling to cope with this , the depression and self harming that went alongside it. From them on in, it made facing my return so much harder. And yeah, I was often late as well, not by choice. The only thing I hated more than being late (and the ensuing fuss) or absent, was the return. Because of exactly this.

Point is, you don't need to know all the troubles of kids - some of them yes you indeed do, but others perhaps not, you never, ever know what's going on behind closed doors for poor behaviour or performance, so it's best to think before you speak and influence children, as the adult of the scenario.

College age is probably a better age for it, but still unprofessional.

I'd also go so far to say, that very, very few teenagers (or young children as in the case of the OP) have solid self esteem, school is such a harsh time for so many.

It's the sort of ages comments are easily taken completely the wrong way, or it has a much more severe effect on self esteem issues than you might think. But as a teacher, you really really should know better, that this is an incredibly sensitive time and sometimes making comments infront of the class you think are well meaning and funny, aren't making the students better, you're bloody mortifying them infront of everybody, and encouraging them to join in.

You're not there to be the kids friends. You're there to teach, and set an example. I don't think comments infront of others that can easily be humilating to some kids is a good example.

'you don't really know what is going on at home, and that for many children that is a deliberate choice.'

This, with bells on. Things are a bit different these days, but I managed to slip past the net prettily easily, and I'm aghast looking back how I was.

There was a couple of teachers who whilst they didn't know my circumstances, knew something was up, and were gentle toward me. I remember my piano teacher, letting me sit in her classroom and play the piano on our lunch breaks. We didn't talk much, she just let me play, whilst she marked. And did help at times.

Thinking back, I was a complete cockend in those lessons because of my difficulties. I'd like to think she was one of those that knew something was wrong, and didn't take it personally. I was actually so very fond of her, and now feel like an utter turd for it!

@RachelRavenRoth

I'm a teacher (in secondary) and good natured, gentle teasing of students and their foibles is part of creating a warm classroom environment. I will rib kids for always being late, always forgetting things - along the lines of declaring it to be a miracle if a kid who's always late turns up on time, telling everyone not to 'do an insert kid name here' if there's a running joke about a particular child in the class who's always doing something wrong, etc. It's all done in love, the kids know I don't mean anything by it, and they love having a giggle at themselves and each other. That is really not ok.

Not only is it not ok, RachelRavenRoth should be sacked. Let's hope it is reported soon.

@Introvertedbuthappy your comment about your experience of "teasing" at home being, being belittled, mirrors my mother's experience. She grew up rarely having a safe space anywhere. She's been a teacher and a psychologist and you should hear her comments on the subject of how important it is to keep teasing out of the home and family!

There's a definite age-range issue to be considered, and a huge variation of what different people would describe or imagine as "gentle teasing". I can see the benefits of it with teenagers - but as some have outlined still urge caution. At primary - bad idea to make any habit of it at all.

When I was 7, my year 2 teacher (hwo I otherwise liked) must have been showing us some flowers and mentioned "Busy Lizzies". She then made a comment about me being a "busy lizzie". Not even teasing really. I didn't like it, partly because I didn't want my name shortened anyway; so others picked up on it and it became a core of name-calling that went on until I left that school at the end of year 6. The ongoing stuff was bad because of bad playground management policies, but it does illustrate what can go wrong with something profoundly innocuous.

My experiences of not fitting in at primary left me very vulnerable as a teenager though I was a very high achiever. An English teacher when I was in year 10 had to deal with me completely falling apart over a short and rather trivial novel we were studying because I over-identified with the characters and she'd had no idea that I would do that - by then, I was respected, admired, and liked by my classmates but did not realise it myself. Even my mother, who understood exactly what was going on, was surprised how much it still affected me at that point.

@Introvertedbuthappy
Great posts.

And others.

I think a lot of kids can smile through this trpe of banter but feel bullied and diminished, even though it might not be the teacher's intention.

I don't for a minute believe teachers know exactly the dynamics in every childs home.

They might spot a socially deprived child easily but the minutiae of a students family life behind a very middle class background wouldn't be easy to decipher.

Teens hide a lot of emotions and would rather appear unbothered, when infact that banter could cut deeply.

msbehavin:

FWIW - I completely get your points raised; you don't sound in the least bit of a bully. You clearly have passion, love your job despite the huge challenges and your developed style of teaching is obviously well received if you have worked for ten years with no issues or negative feedback.

In my view, and I recall proper Bully teachers when I was at school, there is always a place for character, and individual style. Kids will have to learn to deal with ALL styles of interaction - not to describe your style as in any way contentious - and the sooner this is accepted then we will hopefully move on to seeing individual kids develop a little bit of resilience.

My two DC's did have the occasional difficult teacher who used to try to humiliate; I did raise this at school and it was 'dealt' with. But - the bottom line was that they actually had to get on with it - and they did.

I would describe them and so would they - as we have discussed this - as realistic, accepting whist being assertive and confident. Both, despite being hugely different in their learning styles and character, have both gone on to have successful, fulfilling academic and 'non academic' careers ( one Oxford Hons Graduate and one an Amazon Delivery Driver :) ) and both adorable, honest, happy and respectful young men.

So I am SO sorry that your skills and style have been labelled as 'bullying'

Far from it from the sound of it.

Long may you stand in that room and teach ....Sometimes MN is utter crap and leaves readers and writers feeling sad and disrespected....and that is not on....one could say a few Bullies here today ...Best Wishes msbehavin:

There’s a huge range between a bullying teacher (like my maths teacher Mrs S who was well known for picking one child in each class to have a go at all year - I was that child) through to my very loved biology teacher who would tease me about my spelling - every time I struggle with spelling now I think fondly of her gentle teasing and it makes me smile.

To return to the OP - the thing to remember is that at 9/10 the child is still young and his version of classroom events might not be a true reflection of what has happened. I work as a TA in a primary school and we see this quite frequently. Firstly things that get reported from home that at simply not true or gross over inflations of how things happened. Secondly the things said to parents that come back to us as queries - that simply didn’t happen in the way they are reported. It does mean you have to be careful, and clearly something upset Charlie but I would proceed with caution to find out the truth or what was said. I’m not saying that children are lying but just that their reporting skills can be a little lacking!

I don’t want there to be a pile on but a child from a loving, well adjusted background wouldn’t be 15 mins late every day.

I am amazed at what I am reading on here....teachers saying that a bit of 'gentle teasing' builds up a rapport etc.
In my opinion, absolutely no teasing is ever acceptable, especially in the classroom. What you think is gentle may not be to the child, and you have no idea how it is being received. In addition, the child is not like an adult, who may ask you to explain yourself and stop, they child cannot do this to a class teacher as the relationship is unequal.

Even the most dreadful child, whose behaviour ruins the teacher's class, does not deserve to be teased or for the class to be led in a 'mocking' exercise. If the child really is awful, there are many other ways of dealing with it, and this isn't one of them.

I don’t think school is the place to teach pupils to deal with “gentle teasing”. Some have a home life where teasing or even bullying is the only type of family interaction and being singled out at school makes it feel like there is no respite. Also teasing kids about being late every day is awful - surely some of those kids don’t have much control over their home life and there is a reason they’re often late that goes way beyond a personality quirk.

Also the kids who would be most affected by the “gentle teasing” will be the ones who won’t complain about it, because they don’t have a parent who’ll come to the teacher with concerns and have their child’s back.

@BensonStabler, just wanted to say sorry that you had so many difficulties to contend with when you were growing up. I really hope that you've been able to find a safe haven in your adult life. You deserved so much more.