Report that says Institutional Racism doesn't exist and more ...

[Dustyboots]

Is no one else angry about this?

I can't find any other threads about it.

What is going on?

And the bit that says the “slave period”, was not just about “profit and suffering” and argues that the era was also about how “culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain”.

Are people unaware of this? Or do we just no longer care ...

“Representation only matters if it’s a genuine seat at the table rather than just to have a mannequin in your shop front in order to appear to tick the right boxes.”

Exactly it has to be genuine to come across in the right way otherwise it just comes across as box ticking which is massively patronising.

@PRsecrets its actually asian people who are very under represented in football even on a player level

@Kamr123
I wasn’t saying it is bad or good. I was suggesting a pp watch the adverts and see for themselves.
And the other stuff you quoted wasn’t me.

You are seeing more diversity in advertisements because advertisers want to appeal to as broad a market as possible. Selling stuff to people is not the same as representation.

It's nice to see a report that doesn't take the really rather shitty and racist approach of putting all non-white people into one pile, but instead makes an effort to look at the data around different communities.

And what it shows is what a lot of us can see, there is significant variety in how these different groups do, and the factor that joins them up in most cases is not systemic racism.

The really hopeful thing about that is that it opens the door to addressing the real problems of some communities, if that's what they want.

The crappy thing is the usual suspects are jumping all over it because it doesn't really give much scope for that universal solvent of identity politics, "systemic racism" a social phenomena with no really mechanism or cause, and unaddressable - therefore resisting any call to real action. We might miss a few statues but the middle classes and the elite won't have to face challenges to our economic paradigm, and that's what really matters.

Experts named in government’s ‘flawed’ race report ‘shocked’ to see names in evidence contributor list, and state they were never consulted.

Also - Samuel Kasumu, Boris' senior adviser on Race has resigned. Lord Simon Woolley has called the Report deeply divisive. MPs and so many other organisations are raising questions.

It all stinks really but no surprise

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/race-report-boris-johnson-authors-b1825516.html

There's a huge difference between "everyone is nice, there's no racism in the world" and "You're Black, the world hates you and wants to see you fail. Things are stacked up against you. You must work twice as hard to get half of anything".

There's a wide gap in the middle there.

One side is in denial, the other side is setting the kid up for defeat/anger at the world/ fear/ or if lucky, working twice as hard and hopefully making it but it's a rough hill before they even begin. That talk is far from effective.

If you're talking about awareness of issues, letting kids know what is in the world, what has happened, that there are good and bad people of every race yet instilling confidence, self esteem, etc in them, then that's not the "victim talk". It's common sense conversation (life sense as you said) and is an ongoing conversation as the child develops and has more experience.

One of the academics credited as a consultant on the report, a person who actually does know his onions when it comes to Britain's racial history, had no involvement in the report and didn't even know he was credited as a consultant until after it had been published.

No only was the report biased and agenda-led, the people who wrote it flat out lied about their sources.

twitter.com/blackpoppies14/status/1377522299570638848?s=20

Since Stephen Bourne tweeted, three other credited "consultants" have come forward to confirm the report lied about and faked their involvement.

The report is entirely discredited IMO.

the other side is setting the kid up for defeat/anger at the world/ fear/ or if lucky, working twice as hard and hopefully making it but it's a rough hill before they even begin. That talk is far from effective.

Yes! I have two mixed race boys (white/asian) and I worry that by mentioning racism, it'll dampen their self esteem/think they can't acheive what they want as adults. I want them to get as old as possible before they know that racism exists. I do mention race, but its always in positive/neutral ways.

Actually they should know that racism exists and that there are stupid people in the world but they don't have to hold onto it as their burden to carry or inherit the trauma of knowing that their skin colour/race or ethnicity makes them any more or less anything in anyone's eyes. Who tf cares about what anyone else "sees"? There's a balanced, neutral (as you said) way to have these conversations and some parents find that balance. Some don't.

Not caught up.

Bottom line is if you don't have a certain characteristic then while you can read, discuss etc and have an opinion, in the end you don't have the day to day experience.

Same as anything else. When groups of women say this that the other is bad, too many men are quick to say. It can't be that bad/ you're looking for offence/ stop seeing yourselves as victims etc etc

This seems to be exactly the same mechanism.

It's really depressing to see something that many women understand when they are in the recieving end, still expressed when they are not.

I am physically disabled and I know people don't really get it. Why would they? It's academic for them.

I am female and I know that loads of men are defensive, hostile even when stuff about women's issues comes out.

I have lived with the met as my police for over 4 decades. I am white. There are massive problems with the met that are always lessons learned. Nothing seems to change.

There is also the fact that you can't just lump all the non white people in together. There are huge differences in all sorts of things depending on a host of factors.

I suppose also your response to this depends on where you live etc.

I live in London and the met are my force. And yes that's only one aspect of society. But there is no question in my mind that they are institutionally racist when it comes to black people. (And a lot of other things against other groups too).

I'll read the thread now.

They will learn about racism eventually of course, but I'm not sure how it would benefit them to know about it in their Early Primary years?

I agree with @skirk64.

I’m loathe to agree with a Tory administration, but it’s not the 1970s, nor even the 1990s anymore. Racism absolutely exists - and it’s bad in some institutions, eg the police, still I’d say- but it’s not (in my view) the thing that holds so many people back in the U.K today: that’s class.

Class. Class and poverty. Lots of Black British people are working class, and many live in poverty- that’s the bigger cause, in my view.

A friend works at the BBC. Their target for representation of people of colour is 20%. Despite the makeup of POC in the U.K. being about 14%.

These sorts of over corrections actually lead to more problems, because then some young POC may wonder why all institutions don’t have 20% POC on them, eg Boards and parliament etc. They then conclude racism is why, when actually it isn’t at all. I think many POC think Britain is more diverse than it actually is, because they may live (as I do) in areas where the Afro Caribbean population is very high, so it’s assumed all of the U.K. is like that and there’s a racist conspiracy keeping “the top jobs” white. But it’s bollocks. Two of the great offices of state are held by British Asians (and yes, I do understand the different barriers faced by black people and Asians).

I just feel like the issue is far more nuanced today, but the demands of the people damning this report are not prepared to acknowledge that.

If you take the black maternal mortality issue that’s been talked about recently- you’d assume it’s because loads of midwives are massively racist, but actually most NHS staff in diverse areas are POC! My midwife, doctors , nurses and anaesthetist when I had DH were all black, south Asian and East Asian. Maternal mortality in some communities is higher because some women have higher blood pressure, are more likely to be obese and are more likely to have gestational diabetes and on baby number 4,5,6. There is no evidence to suggest scores of doctors and nurses are massively racist (though that’s not to deny it may well be true in a small minority of cases).

But this is the kind of conversation it’s now impossible to have, because you get called racist

'But this is NOT a racist country, and most white people are not racist. And at LAST, we have something to illustrate that!

Of course, some people are going to deny it, but then they would wouldn't they? Because it's not what they want to hear.'

Now I know there is a grey area between race and ethnicity etc.

My borough has a large Jewish community. Has had for years. Many started having to have security at synagogues years ago. Swastikas are painted on the high streets etc where there are high Jewish populations.

I think whether you would put that in the category of racism or not, it certainly doesn't suit shout lovely tolerance does it.

The other thing I have been following for years is the situation where black men are strangely unlucky when it comes to encounters with the met and just keep disproportionately dying.

A report a couple of years back (I'll try to find it again, couldn't earlier) said that preconceptions about black men being more violent, volatile were prevalent, and so restraint methods durations etc were more zealous than with non black men.

Look - parents with lived experiences, parent of mixed race child with input from child's non-White parent/relatives KNOW how to talk to their children about racism.

Particularly for Black people, it's disrespectfully infantilizing and a form of racism in itself to state or imply we don't know how to have discussions with our children, and are sitting there in woe is me handwringing victim-mode.

Of course we're not.

Racists to me are divisive misfits who thrive on hate so as to not look at aspects of their own lives that hurt them, that they haven't dealt with. I don't go around feeling a 'victim' because of them. My DCs friends family etc don't either. We are aware of them. We have to be.

We are in a Right Wing country of course we have to have a discussion with our children. I don't believe in keeping things from children that they need to know.

Teaching children about stranger danger, boundaries etc (& yes we do that too), I bet it isn't thought this is setting them up to cower away from and fear all adults. So why should discussion that racists and racism exist, be looked upon as something to "shhhh" about?

Every parent of a Black child knows the day will arrive when they ask "Mum/Dad, what's a *insert racist slur/stereotype"
Primary school, usually.

It is not sensible to ignore reality.

Has the windrush scandal even been mentioned on this thread? How long did that all come out. Couple of years or so?

@Camomila

They will learn about racism eventually of course, but I'm not sure how it would benefit them to know about it in their Early Primary years?

I agree, they will. If you don't think it's time, I'm not trying to change that.

By knowing about it, I suppose it's the same as knowing (for example) bullying exists, some people are bullies, some aren't. It doesn't have to be a big production or done all at once. Of course, it also happens at the right time when you (as their parent) know they're ready to know one or two things - usually when they've asked or when they've experienced something or watched someone else experience something or heard about something somewhere. When the right time comes for a conversation about it (which can happen so many times over months and years), you'll know.

The Angiolini report into deaths in police custody I think is what you mean.

parent of mixed race child with input from child's non-White parent/relatives KNOW how to talk to their children about racism

Should have said here

parent of mixed race child with input from child's non-White parent/relatives and willing to actually listen and recognise there are racist aspects of society here.

For NiceGerbil

I don't think we're saying anything that much different from each other. Perhaps from a different angle. My last post said something very similar to yours.

I still stand by what I said - some parents do, some don't. If you do, great then I don't mean you but you cannot speak for "every black parent". No matter your experience, others can have different ones.

The point that keeps being raised about % of the population.

It really does depend where you live.

'The 2011 census found that 1.85 million of a total Black population of 1.9 million lived in England, with 1.09 million of those in London, where they made up 13.3 per cent of the population, compared to 3.5 per cent of England's population and 3 per cent of the UK's population'

So if something is set in London then about what 1 in 6 people are black.

I find this whole conversation is running along exactly the same lines as the topic of sexism/ institutional sexism etc and what men say.

It's so depressing. I didn't realise so many people thought like this.

My real eye opener was the threads about starting a black mumsnetters board. Bloody hell.

I grew up in a communist dictatorship and I’m scared. No hyperbole, it feels exactly like in communism where nobody trusted their own families, they would inform on you ‘the walls have ears’ style of living. People were reduced to just animals, trying to survive, and there was nowhere to turn to for help. In the past decade, the UK has slipped into an extremely low quality of life, and corruption has exploded and eroded everything that is worth anything.

David Lammy already did a report with several actions on it.
This was ignored in favour of doing a new report, which, what a surprise, found nothing needs doing or spending.