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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do men know this is creepy?

395 replies

FlossieTeacakesFurCoat18 · 27/03/2021 14:19

Yesterday I was walking in woodland near my home, something I do regularly. I was approaching a gate leading to the lane and a guy was coming through it towards me. I glanced back once I was through the gate and he'd turned around and was now walking behind me. I stopped by a tree and pretended to be fiddling with my phone so I was facing him and kind of stared him down... He then made a 90 degree turn and went up the hill.

I don't think he was actually going to do anything sinister but surely guys know that you don't do an about-face and start following a woman you've just passed in a relatively remote space with no other people around? He wasn't a young lad who might not have realised this is scary for women, he was in his thirties.

I realise men can be clueless but is it possible to be THAT oblivious? Do they do it on purpose or am I paranoid after seeing screenshots from reddit users saying they get a kick out of following women and seeing them get nervous?

OP posts:
Boatingforthestars · 27/03/2021 23:24

[quote Tiktaktoe]@Boatingforthestars do you get that your example of how men face the same issues is like someone with a tattoo telling a black person that they too face discrimination.
Yes, they undoubtedly do, but it isn't really comparable.[/quote]
I'd say that is an extreme comparison and no wouldnt agree, sorry.
I never said men face the same issues, I said we face some of the same issues, I also pointed out specifically when given examples that certain issues men are not faced with.

lottiegarbanzo · 27/03/2021 23:24

And yes, I know exactly why that is not going to happen. It might slightly inconvenience some men who consider themselves good.

They believe their rights and freedoms are more important than ours.

Also simple.

ceilingsand · 27/03/2021 23:29

Oh my. What a creep. Definitely a man on the path to much worse.

And OP your question isn't wrong and no you were not paranoid.

Boatingforthestars · 27/03/2021 23:29

Strictly speaking it's not simple because it still doesnt remove the threat.
I agree that all the good guys can work somewhat on their actions in public where those actions could make females feel uncomfortable unintentionally.

The problem still persists though for the not so good guys that will deliberately cause alarm and go out of their way to make women feel uncomfortable.

Staffy1 · 27/03/2021 23:33

While men have to worry too, probably not nearly as much as women. The same people who will attack a burly man will probably attack women, but there are also a significant number of men who wouldn't attack the burly man who wouldn't think twice about attacking or harassing a woman.

lottiegarbanzo · 27/03/2021 23:35

Yes but we'd all be able to identify them. Which makes it much easier for passers-by to challenge them with confidence.

No-one would be in any doubt that a man following another person closely, even when that person crossed the road, or stopped then re-started, was up to no good, for example.

Tiktaktoe · 27/03/2021 23:37

Therein lies the problem @Boatingforthestars, because it isn't that an extreme of a comparison.
You need to listen more to what women are saying about THEIR experiences and stop putting yourself into the equation.

lottiegarbanzo · 27/03/2021 23:38

And in OP's case, she wouldn't have posted here to express uncertainty, she could have called the police. She'd have been confident that no good man, showing consideration, would have gone through the gate, then immediately turned, come back through the gate and followed her.

lottiegarbanzo · 27/03/2021 23:42

Obviously being a vigilant passer-by, paying attention to what is going on around them, would be an important part of the general consideration towards others, that good men would learn to adopt.

Robbo94 · 27/03/2021 23:44

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Robbo94 · 27/03/2021 23:46

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Boatingforthestars · 27/03/2021 23:49

@Tiktaktoe

Therein lies the problem *@Boatingforthestars*, because it isn't that an extreme of a comparison. You need to listen more to what women are saying about THEIR experiences and stop putting yourself into the equation.
Of course it's an extreme comparison.

I have never doubted the issues women suffer that men do not, I have never tried to doubt that.
Going of OPs experience I said in that situation as a Male I would also feel threatened, why wouldnt I? I could be beaten or killed just the same as a woman could, it's less likely a man would fall victim to a sexual attack I agree but doesnt me we would walk off unscathed if the person wanted to hurt someone.

I have listened to what alot of the women on here have said, I've actively tried to get involved in the discussion about it.
I'm not putting myself into the equation, I'm involved in a discussion.

Why cant I get involved but you can? Surely your taking away from the OPs experience by making it about you. Or is that acceptable because your a woman? It's a topic we can all discuss surely?

Embra · 27/03/2021 23:49

Next time just start coughing like really badly in the guys face saying “ f** covid “ and then make a video of him running away) and post here we can all have a laugh

lottiegarbanzo · 27/03/2021 23:50

So I think 'goodness' is an action, not a belief, or an inherent characteristic. It cannot be self-attributed, only attributed to a person by others, who have observed that person's active goodness.

Boatingforthestars · 27/03/2021 23:52

@Robbo94

The same people who will attack a burly man will probably attack women, but there are also a significant number of men who wouldn't attack the burly man who wouldn't think twice about attacking or harassing a woman.

Not my experience at all as a man. The type of guys who will kick off over a guy spilling their pint are often the type to step in and defend a women (where a lot of middle class officey types would be too scared).

Violence against women is much more taboo, hence why rapists/paedos etc get a hard time in prison but traditional 'hard men' get on just fine.

I think the point was more about if a guy has the "balls" to attack a man than a woman is easier prey, which I would agree with. Generally speaking a man would put up more resistance than a female just based on physical size and strength. I think you were looking into that a bit too much by the sterio types which I'd also agree with, although how many people are as stereotypical away from film sets.
Mittens030869 · 27/03/2021 23:54

I would certainly be very anxious in the scenario described by the OP and I would fear that he was up to no good. And it would certainly be rape that I would be fearing rather than a mugging, as a man wouldn’t be looking for a victim to mug on a country path.

I have PTSD as a result of childhood SA, so I’m never sure whether I’m being over anxious in situations like that.

It feels like I’ve never been allowed to feel safe. I wasn’t safe as a child and now as an adult woman I find myself looking over my shoulder. Admittedly it happens less often now that I’m a middle aged overweight woman who doesn’t go out much due to poor health (Long Covid), but I had a lot of anxious moments as a student and in the days when I travelled on my own.

Tiktaktoe · 27/03/2021 23:58

"Violence against women is much more taboo, hence why rapists/paedos etc get a hard time in prison but traditional 'hard men' get on just fine"
Are you fucking joking?

Sn0tnose · 28/03/2021 00:11

sorry but I dont know how to reply to you like you have me, so unfortunately you will have to decipher a blck of text. Not a problem. You just need to put a * at the beginning and end of each sentence (leaving no gaps) and it will make it bold.

You can rib me if you like, personally I think a discussion is more beneficial to all parties. And, ordinarily I’d agree but I’m beginning to suspect that I’m banging my head against a brick wall here. I did write out a huge post addressing all your points but, actually, I can’t be bothered to keep repeating myself.

No I have not seen anything by Daniel Sloss, I will look into it. I’d really recommend it. The whole show is very funny but the last 20 minutes is the bit that I think everyone should watch.

Some how the paragraphs have come out in the wrong order but you get my point Absolutely not a problem re the paragraphs but, no. I’m afraid I don’t get your point. All I’m hearing is how you feel and you fear male violence (albeit quite understandably) and how you don’t understand why women can’t include how men are feeling or understand how men go through some of the same things. How that’s not what you said and not what you meant, and how I’m wrong for making it about women, not men and women. You don’t get it. You don’t seem interested in getting it so, with the greatest respect, I can’t be arsed wasting any more time trying to help you get it.

Sn0tnose · 28/03/2021 00:22

Why cant I get involved but you can? Surely your taking away from the OPs experience by making it about you. Or is that acceptable because your a woman? It's a topic we can all discuss surely?

I’m going to have one more try before I log off and go to bed, purely because I missed this post and it has infuriated me. The post is about predatory male behaviour towards women. She can get involved because she’s a woman and there is every chance that she has experienced similar behaviour.

You are a man. You have never and will never face the sex based behaviour that women experience from men. You acknowledge this but yet still, your only interest is in making sure that everyone understands that men face violence too. You don’t want a discussion. You want a lectern and an audience.

BarefootByMoonlight · 28/03/2021 00:23

There’s an episode of Poirot wherein he says something like ‘most people have a policeman inside their heads’ the ones we have to fear are those that don’t.

But how do we see inside another’s head? We can’t.

We look for patterns, we feel our discomfort.

But women are told, endlessly, be kind, be polite, be demure even.

One self defence mechanism is to urinate, defecate or vomit to break the fantasy - so we have to actively debase ourselves to avoid rape? Call ‘fire’ because calling ‘rape’ elicits less of a response?

But what of those who think they are smarter than using overt violence?

Listen to the laughter of the nation when Matt Lucas made fun of the confused messages of the nation’s Prime Minister - do this, but don’t do this, do that, but don’t do that.

We laugh because we see the absurdity and hypocrisy, even at the seriousness of potential illness or death, but we stay at home, we wear masks, we forgo meeting family, we alter our work habits.

But for sexual assault? We tell ourselves it doesn’t happen to people like us, we tell ourselves we would not be so stupid, we tell ourselves we are safe because we are, well, not victims. We tell ourselves NAMALT. We tell ourselves we would fight back.

We tell ourselves we can never be victims, and so, those that are victims are lying, or stupid, or crazy.

Here is a heads up. My abuser started with family. And no one challenged him. He drugged women at events where they could be blamed for being ‘drunk’. He targeted lonely women by ‘being a nice guy’ and visiting women alone, making tea, laced with his drugs to ensure they did not remember, or could not testify against him.

He made money from filming his attacks, he made money from selling videos - and the bodies of those women he rendered unconscious to his friends and strangers.

But he is, to all outward appearances, a kindly man who took close care of his female family, his gf, the local elderly women he visited.

He had protection from family who could not admit what he had done to them, from a gf who hoped if he was hurting her, he would not hurt others, from his friends, including police, who benefitted from his depravity to indulge their own. He had protection from the elderly women he attacked because he was ‘kind’ to visit them when no one else did.

Because who would believe it?

NAMALT

BULLSHIT

Predators survive and thrive because those adjacent to them have motive enough themselves to excuse, encourage even, their depravity.

Even when we know he has done these things, he is a man, he had a bad childhood, he couldn’t possibly have done this to us - because we are not those sort of people who abusers would target

NAMALT.

EVERY MAN HAS THE CAPACITY TO BE LIKE THAT IF THEY BENEFIT IN ANY WAY.

And even those who claim not - if you do not actively condemn them - you benefit.

And if you benefit from the mistreatment of women - YOU ARE JUST AS CULPABLE.

Family, partners, friends, acquaintances, we may have been groomed to believe NAMALT - certainly not the men we know - but that is precisely how abusers escape detection - because NAMALT gives their grooming and lies weight.

NAMALT

So why do Not All Men Unlike That, why do Not All Women Unlike That, not want to stop the Men Who Are Like That?

And why are All Women Who See That And Speak Out the ones who are ostracised and condemned?

50 mins or so of crime drama finds and punishes the culprits - crime tropes common from millennia - but here we are.

Excusing the men that abuse, fearing any deviation from the narrative NAMALT, and yes, even scared to admit we cannot trust our fathers, brothers, husbands, sons - not just your male relatives, but our own

NAMALT.

No, not all are, but if not all men, or not all women, are willing to speak out against, rally against, organise against, those men that are - what have we? But a society that says it’s ok to treat others as things and not as people.

That’s not a society I wish to live in. And indeed one I tried to escape - not by the easy means of unsubscribing to an internet board, not by avoiding reading opinions I disagreed with.

But by trying to take my own life. Because how else could I avoid all men? - not being able to easily see which would abuse me, or being able to avoid reading, or experiencing those men who are dangerous, or those men, and women, who would excuse abusive behaviour.

But I am still here, still alive, still fighting, still giving my opinion because who would benefit from my death? Only the men who’s actions made it an option.

NAMALT.

Anyone who uses this to shut down victims voices deserves to know they are either culpable or collaborators in the devastation abusers inflict.

NAMALT - FUCK OFF

Robbo94 · 28/03/2021 00:26

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gurglebelly · 28/03/2021 00:31

Slightly off topic, but I wish something like this was used in a public information campaign, it might make 'those' men realise how bloody ridiculous their behaviour is

Robbo94 · 28/03/2021 00:36

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SachaStark · 28/03/2021 00:37

The irony of some male posters on here describing how they, too, sometimes fear being attacked.

Yes, by other men. Hence why men need to be the ones who modify their behaviour.

And the whinging on about needing to take some time to consider their actions and modify their behaviour in a post-metoo world. Fucking SIGH, yes, welcome to the world that women already live in, where we have to constantly consider our actions and situations. If you’re tired after doing this for a few years, think how fucking EXHAUSTED every woman you know is, having done this since our pre-adolescence.

My DH is 6’7”, and experienced one very significant event where he was jogging at night, and ran up towards a woman in an alleyway, who immediately cowered before him. He arrived home extremely shaken, having learnt a valuable lesson about how to fucking behave in public, and has never once complained about needing to modify his behaviour to make himself seem less threatening.

As many posters have already said, the monsters look. Like. You. They look like my DH, and my father, and my work colleagues, whom are all good men. Doesn’t change the fact that the rapists look like them, though.So we need you to modify your behaviours, and call out other men when they do not, so that we can be safer.

It shouldn’t be so bloody difficult for the “good guys”.

Robbo94 · 28/03/2021 00:50

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