Do men know this is creepy?

[FlossieTeacakesFurCoat18]

Yesterday I was walking in woodland near my home, something I do regularly. I was approaching a gate leading to the lane and a guy was coming through it towards me. I glanced back once I was through the gate and he'd turned around and was now walking behind me. I stopped by a tree and pretended to be fiddling with my phone so I was facing him and kind of stared him down... He then made a 90 degree turn and went up the hill.

I don't think he was actually going to do anything sinister but surely guys know that you don't do an about-face and start following a woman you've just passed in a relatively remote space with no other people around? He wasn't a young lad who might not have realised this is scary for women, he was in his thirties.

I realise men can be clueless but is it possible to be THAT oblivious? Do they do it on purpose or am I paranoid after seeing screenshots from reddit users saying they get a kick out of following women and seeing them get nervous?

Catcalling and unwanted grabbing has happened to me too. Also once a man I was going out with for the first time was supposedly walking me to his front door. As we passed his open bedroom door, he gave me a shove that sent me into the room and I ended up on my back at the end of his bed with him with his arms braced against the door frame. I managed to get across that he had better let me out, thank God. The main things I remember.

Horrible OP.

My friend and I went through a period of being followed for some reason. The first time it happened she turned around and screamed at the man to leave us alone. He did.

The second time it happened she told me to keep walking as she thought a man was following us. So we did and then turned around d again to get back en route. And omg...he turned around to continue following us. We ducked inside a fancy hotel to hide behind a huge christmas tree. I felt so pathetic and scared.

In those scenarios I've wondered why the men has targeted not just one but two women at once.

@cushioncovers

I think he was going to do something sinister op. He walked through the gate then abruptly did a u turn after you went through the gate. Definitely dodgy behaviour.

I think this too

Well, yes broadly speaking men are the problem. But we're not all the same. RTFT.

White/black is as much of a divide as male/female and you might find that many black women feel more in common with black men than white women. Out of interest, how many women of colour do you think modify their behaviour (as women often do) because they fear sex based violence from white women?

SachaStark
The irony of some male posters on here describing how they, too, sometimes fear being attacked

Yes, by other men. Hence why men need to be the ones who modify their behaviour

And the whinging on about needing to take some time to consider their actions and modify their behaviour in a post-metoo world. Fucking SIGH, yes, welcome to the world that women already live in, where we have to constantly consider our actions and situations. If you’re tired after doing this for a few years, think how fucking EXHAUSTED every woman you know is, having done this since our pre-adolescence

My DH is 6’7”, and experienced one very significant event where he was jogging at night, and ran up towards a woman in an alleyway, who immediately cowered before him. He arrived home extremely shaken, having learnt a valuable lesson about how to fucking behave in public, and has never once complained about needing to modify his behaviour to make himself seem less threatening

As many posters have already said, the monsters look. Like. You. They look like my DH, and my father, and my work colleagues, whom are all good men. Doesn’t change the fact that the rapists look like them, though.So we need you to modify your behaviours, and call out other men when they do not, so that we can be safer

It shouldn’t be so bloody difficult for the “good guys”

All of this.

At this stage, not understanding = wilfully obtuse

Or just wanting to argue with women for the sake of it, getting off on womens' wariness and concerns for safety.

ie - Culpable. Not a 'good guy'.

Boating .... quick question: when your doorbell rings, do you open it? I don't. If I'm home alone I speak through the door, but I will rarely open it. Your experience as a man is very very different. We are talking about something that is on another level completely.
As women, we have to consider our safety ALL THE FUCKING TIME. When I take my children for walks, I am on edge if there aren't many people around. When the gas man comes to read the meter indoors, the worry is at the back of my mind. When my garden gate opens unexpectedly, I shit myself. When men look at my very young daughter in a certain way (I listen to my gut, that instinct is there for a reason) I feel sick.

Do you know what I mean? I doubt it.

It's as creepy as fuck. I don't believe he was innocent. Always trust your gut. I would recommend not taking the subtle approach. The direct approach of staring the bastard out works best. Look at animals who have trusted their instincts forever, when under threat they rear up to the preditor, they make it clear they are not to be missed with. Get your phone out and start recording of you have to or make a phone call but make it obvious to the man that you know what he is doing. If he is innocent then you haven't lost anything, it just makes it less likely be will attack you.

When my dcs were young and we went out walking in the woods, with dh, dh always picked up a heavy branch and carried it with him, he always walked behind the kids too. It was a conscious decision. He also said that he would be worried if I went alone with the kids without him. As a man he knew the risks women and children face. We also once encountered a very unnerving scenario which involved 2 men with a van with blackout windows and their side door ajar. Without going into details my dh saw the way he was leering almost salivating at my young dd. The man stopped when he eventually saw the look on my dhs face. My dh was so angry he said he felt like hitting the guy. The van remained parked up. It was a favourite walking place for families with children.
Always trust your gut.

I think we need more security in terms of cameras as in countries with greater surveillance and harsher sentences there is less crime - sexual and non-sexual. That said I do not think that every female lives in fear of men - it clearly depends upon people's experience, m ashy women go walking and running alone and like anyone exercise caution, not everyone is terrified and I do not think we as a society should exaggerate the risks. Sexual violence is awful and as a country that needs to be tackled.

Question for the men. If you have been attacked, say in a pub whilst out alone, why do you keeping going out alone drinking? I'm not victim blaming just curious. Women often get asked that same question. Double standards and I want to know why men don't modify their behaviuor.

I wonder why a thread about women feeling scared by creepy male behaviour has been taken over by male voices telling women that they, men, are victims too? Is there any topic women can discuss without a male voice inserting itself to explain why our point of view is incorrect?

@MiaChia

I wonder why a thread about women feeling scared by creepy male behaviour has been taken over by male voices telling women that they, men, are victims too? Is there any topic women can discuss without a male voice inserting itself to explain why our point of view is incorrect?

No. There isn't.

[quote VenusTiger]@YouWerePrettyIWasLonely as I pointed out in a post - the generalised 'men' comments aren't welcome either.[/quote]
Go away @VenusTiger

It's not a problem of poor understanding, it's violent sociopathic men not giving a shit and you won't 'educate' these men with words

You really, really don't get it do you?

For women, it's about the constant harassment - sexual assault/rape/murder are at the more extreme end, but at the other end is the lower level stuff. That YouTube link up thread is a great example of what happens.

This leads to us being on full alert all the time:

checking out a man walking towards you
checking that there's no-one behind you
worrying about using your headphones when you're running in case you can't hear someone approaching
being glad there's someone else in the house when the gas man/builder/plumber comes in to do some work
not wanting to get into a lift if there's just you and a man in it
hoping that your taxi driver isn't going to turn out to be John Worboys

... and so on, and so on.

I doubt that any of the men on this thread, so keen to put us right and tell us that they aren't like that, have EVER had this constant narrative running through their minds

My point still stands. Telling men to 'modify their behaviour' doesn't work because the violent men don't give a shit and the male victims can't force them to. This doesn't mean it's any more women's responsibility but the men who will listen to you aren't the men who need to listen. It’s just not going in, is it @Robbo94? Your point doesn’t still stand. Your point is weak and ill thought out and supported by utterly laughable assertions like ‘traditional hard men’ and the sort of men who kick off about spilled drinks in pubs. I’ll have one more go. Women know that many men are lovely and do not wish to hurt or upset them in any way. We also know that namalt. The problem is that we cannot tell which men are nice and are just walking home after a night out, and which men are following us home to frighten us or drag us into a bush as soon as they get the chance. If all of the nice, decent men just minding their own business just modified their behaviour ever so slightly, it might give us more of a chance of spotting the ones who aren’t modifying theirs, before we get cracked over the head with a brick and dragged into a bush. So cross over if you’re walking behind a woman at night. Don’t leer at women. Call your mates out if they’re saying inappropriate things about women. If a woman turns you down or doesn’t want to talk to you, don’t get abusive or try to convince her. Talk to your sons about pornography and how it’s not representative of real sex. Talk to them about sex workers and the possibility that she’s a victim of trafficking. Talk to them about dick pics and sharing intimate photos of their girlfriends with their mates. Talk to them about consent, how it can be withdrawn at any time and how women who can barely stand up straight cannot give it. Talk to them about believing women when they make allegations against a sportsman, rather than the default position of asking whether she was doing it for the money.

It's not a problem of poor understanding, it's violent sociopathic men not giving a shit and you won't 'educate' these men with words. With every word you type, you’re showing just how little of a clue you have about what women go through every single day. If you genuinely give even the tiniest shit about women, if you’re not totally full of utter contempt for us, then stop talking and fucking listen! Men who catcall us are not violent sociopaths. Men who grope us in clubs and on packed tubes are not violent sociopaths. Men who laugh along with their mate when he’s describing what he’d like to do ‘to’ her are not violent sociopaths. Men who send unwanted dic pics are not violent sociopaths. Men who think that they are entitled to talk to us simply because they’ve decided they’d like a conversation are not violent sociopaths. They’re men just like you. And like the other male poster on here. And our husbands. And our brothers. And our friends. As Daniel Sloss says, it might be one man out of ten who is doing all of this stuff, but if the other nine men aren’t part of the solution then they are part of the problem. And it’s shocking that I need to ask you to listen to a man explain it to you, because you won’t listen to me as a woman.

With every word you type, you’re showing just how little of a clue you have about what women go through every single day. If you genuinely give even the tiniest shit about women, if you’re not totally full of utter contempt for us, then stop talking and fucking listen! Men who catcall us are not violent sociopaths. Men who grope us in clubs and on packed tubes are not violent sociopaths. Men who laugh along with their mate when he’s describing what he’d like to do ‘to’ her are not violent sociopaths. Men who send unwanted dic pics are not violent sociopaths. Men who think that they are entitled to talk to us simply because they’ve decided they’d like a conversation are not violent sociopaths. They’re men just like you. And like the other male poster on here. And our husbands. And our brothers. And our friends As Daniel Sloss says, it might be one man out of ten who is doing all of this stuff, but if the other nine men aren’t part of the solution then they are part of the problem. And it’s shocking that I need to ask you to listen to a man explain it to you, because you won’t listen to me as a woman.

Great post @Sn0tnose. Especially the bit I've bolded. Perhaps that might resonate a bit more with @Robbo94 and @Boatingforthestars.

The men on the thread asking what can the good guys do. Well, obviously not making women uncomfortable or intimidated is a start.
But there is much much more, and its really not about viewing yourself as a white knight who stands ready to protect us from other men, so our safety from bad men is in the gift of good men. It's about helping to empower us so our safety is a given.
You are statistically more likely to be in positions of power than us, so use that to change things.
If you're our boss make sure the workplace has clear policies and strict sanctions.
If you're our MP or councillor, campaign for changes in law, better policing, stronger penalties. Or use your vote to support political candidates that prioritize our issues.
Listen to us properly, make way for us to be heard, and amplify our voices.
Speak out whenever you can to challenge sexism and misogyny, and keep on doing it as long as it takes, until we are listened to in the same way you are.

@BIWI Thank you, but I very much doubt that it will. The sort of men that it would resonate with are not the sort of men who come onto a thread about sex based violence to ‘explain’ things to women, or tell women that namalt and that they are victims too.

I know it's probably a vain hope @Sn0tnose

Exactly, I don’t think men who definitely care about women’s experiences would realise that they can’t possibly understand and don’t take over a thread about it.

I’m pleasantly surprised that the male apologists haven’t joined the thread to remind us that we shouldn’t hurt men’s feelings, however.

Well, yes broadly speaking men are the problem. But we're not all the same

OH MY GOD - this is ground breaking news! I never realised all men weren’t the same, if only a man had told us Not All Men earlier, I would have realised I had nothing to worry about 🙄

The men on this thread seriously don’t get it. Yesterday I was out a walk with my 9mo dd in her pram, this was at 2:15pm in the afternoon. My dp was at his hobby not that it makes a difference as I SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE MY OWN DD FOR A FUCKING WALK AT 2:15 IN THE AFTERNOON WITHOUT FEELING SCARED!!! However that’s exactly how I felt in the end. As I was walking my dd fell asleep so I stopped to lay her down and pull the hood over but had noticed a group of 6-8 teenage boys about 16-18 I would say coming up behind me shouting and laughing. At this point I didn’t feel scared or anything but more aware of who was where ( there was a young couple walking their dog coming towards me in the other direction a fair bit away ) anyway, I started walking and these boys/fuckwits ran up to me, one grabbed my hair that was in a pony tail and pulled my head back and the one of the others grabbed the hood of my babies pram and pulled it back with such force it tipped the pram backwards so I was on the floor and so was my 9mo dd in her pram. The couple came running towards us, the guy tried to grab one of them but they got away and the girl came running to pick my dd up/help me and her exact words to her partner was “ see this is what I was saying, this is much more likely to happen to a women mark than it is to guys “ ( not his real name btw I’ve changed it ) police are investigating but I doubt they will be caught. The female police officer made a comment about seeing a rise in this sort of thing against women, like it gives them power over us. You wouldn’t get a group of girls that age doing that to another women. This is a MALE ISSUE!!! This is not for fucking women to yet again fucking sort. Have conversations with your other “ good guys “ and see how you can all fix it. I would suggest starting to raise your sons correctly from the start before it gets too far. We know it’s not every man, we are not stupid but we have been made to feel scared of every man we don’t know because of this kind of shit. THIS 👏🏻 IS 👏🏻 NOT 👏🏻 A 👏🏻 WOMENS 👏🏻 PROBLEM 👏🏻 TO 👏🏻 SORT!!

Hold onto your hat @Naunet, there’s more! Robbo has given us the benefit of his “experience as a man” and has declared that the sort of men who get aggressive with other men over a spilled drink in a pub will often defend women when needed. At last, we have a way of identifying at least one type of man from whom we are safe!

Not a fucking clue. Not one.