Do men know this is creepy?

[FlossieTeacakesFurCoat18]

Yesterday I was walking in woodland near my home, something I do regularly. I was approaching a gate leading to the lane and a guy was coming through it towards me. I glanced back once I was through the gate and he'd turned around and was now walking behind me. I stopped by a tree and pretended to be fiddling with my phone so I was facing him and kind of stared him down... He then made a 90 degree turn and went up the hill.

I don't think he was actually going to do anything sinister but surely guys know that you don't do an about-face and start following a woman you've just passed in a relatively remote space with no other people around? He wasn't a young lad who might not have realised this is scary for women, he was in his thirties.

I realise men can be clueless but is it possible to be THAT oblivious? Do they do it on purpose or am I paranoid after seeing screenshots from reddit users saying they get a kick out of following women and seeing them get nervous?

Boatingforthestars

Absolutely believe you.
My 6'4 uncle was walking back from the station one evening ( in a posh suburb of Manchester) and was surrounded by a group of aggressive teens. Fortunately he had a stick and could fight them off but still very shaken.

His wife was chloroformed in Manchester as she was going home from work 5pm. Fortunately the perpetrator was interrupted by a passerby and ran off.

I've had men try the door of my car when I was stopped at lights (also Manchester) flashers ( bus station M/C / underground ) man tried to force me into his car etc etc.

Underneaththeash
Please do not do this if you can get someone to meet you or have any other alternative. Anyone who is so inclined will notice that you walk back like this on your own. The phone idea will not help you. I had my phone snatched from me when I tried to use it in a similar dangerous situation.

We need staff on trains /public transport too. Absolutely no officials on the last train I caught to London - not even a ticket collector.

Also make it absolutely clear to your female relatives that you will come out to meet them off the last bus/train, from a friend's house club/ pub etc however late it is and you won't be angry.

I know this shouldn't need saying but I was horrified how many of my teenaged daughter's irresponsible parents made no provision at all for their daughter to get home. Even specifically telling them they didn't want to be disturbed late at night ( that girl spent the night at ours ) or expecting daughter to wait for over half an hour late at night in a deserted village while Dad finished his pub session several miles away or being happy to allow daughter to walk a mile through a deserted village off the last bus. ( I waited with the last 2).

And we all know that the reason we are targeted is that we are women. There is the fact of pure hatred to deal with.

But it's not hatred, is it? It is predatory behaviour. It is animal behaviour. The hairs standing up on the back of the neck (in the prey), the blind focus and thrill of the hunter ... this is animal.

We are weaker. We can be overcome and easily raped etc. They might stop short of the raping/killing (most of them), but they do like the thrill of our fear. Their ingenuity. The tracking.

Why is it that when men go loco, they get so into tracking? And surveillance? Hunter instinct.

As I say, I know no guys like this (apart from one notable ex, but he was tracking me, not random girls).

But clearly some are animals. I think surely in the tiny minority, though.

[quote Ponoka7]@Boatingforthestars, you're sticking with the late night walking senario . Have you ever felt nervous walking down a corridor at work? Sitting on public transport? On a daily basis waiting just living your life?

@Lorieandrews have you, or your trainers wife ever had a fight with a man intent on assaulting you? Knowing self defense might not make a difference and might get you more hurt than if you didn't know any. Many women freeze when in rl.[/quote]
Yes

We’ve both been attacked. I was raped at a party. This is why I got trained. Had I of been trained. I would of been able to overpower him physically. I screamed bloody murder. So he was stopped halfway through by a male friend of mine. But has I of had the abilities I have now. Without a doubt.

My trainers wife was attacked down a lane. Safe to say she was able to overpower him. He’s got away. But never went to a dr or A and E with any injuries strangely enough.

I’m not saying everyone should

What I was saying was I wish I was with this vulnerable women when these men decided to follow and intimidate them

I wasn’t saying every single woman should know EXACTLY what to do. But that I have the skills available to me. Through 15 odd years training. Like a job. That would be valuable to me. So I could help those women who don’t have those skills.

I remember my dad telling me years ago that he once respectfully approached a woman to ask directions. She immediately started screaming. Obviously some kind of past trauma coming to the fore. It really stayed with my dad, and since then he has gone out of his way to avoid such situations.
Why a man would deliberately seek to make a woman feel uncomfortable, I'll never know. It's awful.

@VenusTiger

I said NAMnersALT and your reply:

@BarefootByMoonlight precisely which is why I've persisted over the years to put across opinions, which is what discussions are all about. I'm tired of it now.

And my point was if you are so tired to put across opinions over the years that you might also recognise how fucking tired I and many others are of putting across our opinions and to still hear NAMALT.

Our opinions, our experiences, being that it is impossible to tell which MALT.

If you are tired of people’s opinion’s on MN I and many others are tired of men’s actions as well as other’s opinions.

But you have the option not to visit MN, the option to live your life never having to read another post on MN ever in your life.

We, and other women, do not have the option to live without ever having to meet another man, without ever having to read their opinions, without ever having to suffer their abusive remarks or actions.

You are tired of Mners, be happy you have the luxury to escape the unwelcome opinions behind, but be aware of the hypocrisy that you do so even when acknowledging NAMnersALT, as you claim NAMLAT knowing I and other women cannot escape those men that are like that because we cannot escape men altogether.

If abusive men only expressed opinions and only on an ‘abusive-men-are-us’ internet board, then we too could happily skip off that board and never think of them again.

NAMLAT vs NAMnersALT - here’s the that might have clued you in to my sarcasm.

If only abusive men had an abusive man emoticon tattooed on their forehead we would at least have a chance of knowing which MALT and which are your lovely NAMALT.

@Sn0tnose

Being a man does not make you be born safe and excemt from random acts of violence from strangers. Completely agree and what happened to you was absolutely dreadful.

I'm not trying to take anything away from women but just pointing out men feel the same way too. In the nicest possible way, so what? This is about women and the million things we have to think about every day to protect ourselves from male violence that your average man doesn’t even consider.
Asking women to consider your experiences as a man sounds like an attempt to either shut women up (‘stop moaning women, men have it bad too’) or make it about men (‘Stop moaning women, we suffer from worst violence than you do, so what about us?). I hope that you’re not aware you’re doing it, but what you’ve written absolutely is an attempt to take away from what women all over the world are going through.

Sorry I absolutely disagree, how is me saying you are not alone trying to distract from the fact women suffer? So a man cant talk about his experiences of the same issues you are talking without making it about men? Why does it solely have to be about women? Why cant it be a problem everyone faces that we are discussing? I agree women can have worse and more frequent problems than men, but that doesnt mean the problems men face are any less real.

A problem in society is exactly that, its everyones problem, you dont have to make it about them and us.

What I have written is not and never will be an attempt to take away from women, I'm trying to have an open discussion on an open forum, and explain things from a male perspective.

@EsmaCannonball

I appreciate that men fear public violence but the kind of violence men face is largely overt: gangs of teenagers who are out for trouble, home-invasion burglars, drunks at kicking out time, football hooligans. Women have to fear those people too, but we also have to fear the violent who are leading double lives, the ordinary man who is waiting for an opportunity. As I said on a thread on the feminism board in the wake of the Sarah Everard murder, a taxi- driver might avoid picking up a group of drunks if he doesn't like the look of them, but I doubt there are many men who have had the thought that their taxi-driver could rape and murder them flicker through their head.

I agree with everything you say in this post Esma, I also like your example re a female in a taxi.

No fortunately that is not an issue men face and have never felt uneasy in a situation like that.

Thankyou for that example it makes you think from a totally different angle.

@Boatingforthestars

^I'm just pointing out that you are not alone in how you feel.
Like I said previously, my belief is that there are just bad people out there, and the most we can all do is try to not put ourselves in harm's way^

Hmm. Be careful you're not starting to victim blame here.

You may be a big, burly bloke - and I'm sorry for the attack you experienced - but I really doubt that every time you walk down the street IN BROAD DAYLIGHT or go running in the park DURING THE DAY that you view any passing male as someone who might do you harm.

You seem like you're expressing sympathy, but actually I think you're being deliberately disingenuous/faux naive here. And as such, you're minimising the fear that many of us fear EVERY DAY, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, when we're going about our ordinary business.

That original screenshot is horrible. Harmless psychological fun!!?? Describing the teenage girl as looking like a frightened fawn and saying he deliberately travels to do this? It really worries me that while this “ man” may not actually intend harm at the moment, he needs stopping because my view is that he is very much working up to being quite possibly a serial rapist and killer. He sounds incredibly predatory.

Read this I heard it on radio 4 it really made me think about those encounters with men where I have had to change direction

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/articles/201801/darkness-the-mountain

Absolutely not trying to victim blame at all, I'm just saying that we have to try to avoid putting ourselves in danger, we all know this it's a human instinct.
It would be lovely if we could all walk around the streets at all hours oblivious to any risk, but the reality is there is a lot of nasty people out there, rightly or wrongly when you leave the house and it's dark or theres less people about than usual or you are off the beaten track we take a chance that we could bump into an unsavoury character, mostly we cant live our lives completely avoiding any risk, we would never leave our homes, but I will avoid a dark park if walking home late at night, or that really quiet street.

I am genuinly expressing sympathy, and the fact anyone should feel fear in what is a normal every day in theory "safe" situation is completely wrong.
I have lots of female family members and a young daughter, how as a society do we make women stop feeling this way.
I've seen the stuff on the news about dont follow to closely behind, cross other the road etc basicly dont be a weirdo or a creep. But I would assume women arent concerned about someone walking to closely but more concerned of there motive. Every normal guy could give you a wide birth, heck could not even walk through the same park, but it's not the normal guys your worried about it's the bad guys, who will always be a threat regardless of the good guys behaviour.

I'm genuinly deeply sorry for anyone that feels fear on a daily basis in normal situations, but how do we move on from this?

it's not the normal guys your worried about it's the bad guys

But that's exactly the point that PP have been making. How do we know who are the bad guys? We don't. And even 'good guys' don't necessarily understand or recognise that their behaviour can be threatening,

@BIWI

it's not the normal guys your worried about it's the bad guys

But that's exactly the point that PP have been making. How do we know who are the bad guys? We don't. And even 'good guys' don't necessarily understand or recognise that their behaviour can be threatening,

I can't fathom how this is so difficult to comprehend.

I know @grapewine

This was posted on my Facebook timeline today, which is highly relevant.

The men on this thread should read this - perhaps this might give more of an insight into what we're talking about

My first post on this thread was admitting to potentially making someone feel threatened completely unintentionally.

What I was getting at is even if every good guy managed to make you never feel threatened, the threat of the bad guys is still going to be there. The only point would be i guess is it's easier for you to identify a real threat as nobody who wasnt a threat would ever be seen that way.

From a guys perspective it's really hard to judge what and how you can make the situation better because we never want to make anyone feel uncomfortable but mostly we are just living our lives.

I was driving home from my hobby one evening, about 9pm, I saw a lone female approximately 20yrs old seemingly scurrying down the road on a quiet ish street with a man about 10ft behind her.
It caught my attention as something potentially untoward but I was driving in the opposite direction to the way they were going.
I thought I would don my good samaritan hat and get round the corner spin the car around in a side road and go back and make sure she was ok.
Nows the time to say I drove a very distinctive sounding car at the time, all blacked out
I drove past the woman, who was now walking the same way but a few hundred yards further up the road, the guy was nowhere to be seen and nothing untoward going on, she did notice the car though. A false alarm in my head.
Excellent I think, rather than turning round infront of her and looking really weird driving past her a third time, I thought I'd keep driving, drive round the block and back towards my house, well I turn a corner and low and behold shes walked down an alleyway popped out on the road I've turned into and is staring face to face with my car again for the third time in less than 5 minutes, it couldnt have looked like anything other than me trying to follow her, the poor woman must have been terrified, it was quiet, late and nobody else around.
I drove home and said to my partner I felt awful, trying to do something positive and end up making the situation worse.

Sorry I absolutely disagree, how is me saying you are not alone trying to distract from the fact women suffer? Well yes, you would disagree, wouldn’t you? Men tend to disagree when a woman doesn’t automatically default to their opinion. You weren’t saying ‘Women, you’re not alone. Men see what is happening and we stand with you and will call out other men when we hear them saying or doing inappropriate things and we will teach our sons to treat women with respect’. You were saying ‘Women, you’re not alone. You might think you have it bad, but let me tell you all about what men go through’.

So a man cant talk about his experiences of the same issues you are talking without making it about men? Firstly, you’re not facing the same issues that women are. How many times have you gone on a first date with a stranger and made sure you meet in a public place so you don’t get raped? How many times have you been sexually harassed by your colleagues or boss? How many times has a taxi driver made you feel so uncomfortable that you’ve got out early and walked the rest of the way so he doesn’t know where you live? How many men do you know who have been sexually assaulted who have had to justify what they were wearing, or whether they’d drunk alcohol or whether they’d led their attacker on? Secondly, no. You have just proved that men can’t.

Why does it solely have to be about women? Did you seriously type that with a straight face?

Why cant it be a problem everyone faces that we are discussing? Because sex based violence is not a problem that everyone faces.

I agree women can have worse and more frequent problems than men, but that doesnt mean the problems men face are any less real. You’re doing it again. ‘Ok women, I concede that you have it rough, but what about men and what we go through?’

A problem in society is exactly that, its everyones problem, you dont have to make it about them and us. I think that it’s men who have done that but, ok, I’ll play along. Have you seen the last 20 minutes of X by Daniel Sloss? Maybe you’ll listen if a man explains it.

What I have written is not and never will be an attempt to take away from women, I'm trying to have an open discussion on an open forum, and explain things from a male perspective. I’m going to be very kind and not rib you for how incredibly patronising that sounds. Instead, I’ll simply say that you’re massively missing the point here. Women are getting to the point where we don’t care what the male perspective is and we’re not interested in centering your experiences of male violence. I think that this is the perfect opportunity for men to listen to women rather than think we need anything explained to us.

Danielle Muscato???

@Sn0tnose sorry but I dont know how to reply to you like you have me, so unfortunately you will have to decipher a blck of text.

You can rib me if you like, personally I think a discussion is more beneficial to all parties.
I apologise now if I come across patronising, its certainly not my intent

I never said what about men and what we go theough, again you are making it us and them. I'm saying you know what that's awfull we go through something similar too, and just having a discussion about it.

No I have not seen anything by Daniel Sloss, I will look into it.

You have literally just tared all men with the same brush because I dont agree with something, it seems being a man I'm not allowed to disagree with a point a woman makes without someone generalizing about something "men" do.
Who knows, maybe I just didnt agree with an unfair point of someone saying something on my behalf that I didnt actually say or try to imply.

I agree with you completely that men dont face the same issues, especially in those circumstances you provided.

Yes I did type it with a straight face, and my next point covers why.
Sex based violence is not something everyone faces, you're right. But sex based violence isn't the only violence women face. OP said about someone stopping turning round and following her, was she only concerned about rape? I doubt it, I'm sure she was concerned about an unprovoked attack, a mugging, any other type of violent crime. Which then yes I can relate to as a man.
If someone was following me down a path in the countryside after changing direction, I would be very concerned, what do they want why are they following me. Do they have a knife, are they about to try and mug me? Theres lots of possible scenarios.

Some how the paragraphs have come out in the wrong order but you get my point

Initially, I thought what the fuck.

Then thought about it some more.

Is this not pretty much how a lot rapists start out, past and present?

Follow girls - get a thrill from the power of scaring them.

Carry on following girls till that's not enough any more or they spot a girl that appeals to them more than the others have - turns to stalking - before you know it...rapist.

It's just these days, they out themselves by telling each other about it online before they get there. In the old days, you heard about this kind of thing only by it getting exposed in newspapers and other old fashioned media.

This is purely a personal opinion, I don't claim I'm right but...
I am convinced that the vast majority of incels are rapists in waiting. The things they say and the attitudes they display sound so like "I want to force girls to have sex with me but I'm scared of prison if I do it". What happens when they lose that fear.

@Boatingforthestars do you get that your example of how men face the same issues is like someone with a tattoo telling a black person that they too face discrimination.
Yes, they undoubtedly do, but it isn't really comparable.

Here's my answer to 'what can we do about it?'.

All the good men take a tiny bit of time to consider how their behaviours might inadvertently alarm or intimidate women. Alter their habitual behaviours accordingly.

Then we can spot the baddies, because they're the ones not showing consideration.

Simple, isn't it?