Do men know this is creepy?

[FlossieTeacakesFurCoat18]

Yesterday I was walking in woodland near my home, something I do regularly. I was approaching a gate leading to the lane and a guy was coming through it towards me. I glanced back once I was through the gate and he'd turned around and was now walking behind me. I stopped by a tree and pretended to be fiddling with my phone so I was facing him and kind of stared him down... He then made a 90 degree turn and went up the hill.

I don't think he was actually going to do anything sinister but surely guys know that you don't do an about-face and start following a woman you've just passed in a relatively remote space with no other people around? He wasn't a young lad who might not have realised this is scary for women, he was in his thirties.

I realise men can be clueless but is it possible to be THAT oblivious? Do they do it on purpose or am I paranoid after seeing screenshots from reddit users saying they get a kick out of following women and seeing them get nervous?

They're not normal.

They're not well brought up.

There is something seriously wrong with them and with the homes they were brought up in.

👍 Not by any stretch of the imagination

Yes, of course they know, and of course some of them do it on purpose. I'm surprised this is news to anyone over the age of about 12 tbh. The point is the fear it will obviously engender and the feeling of power and control that bestows. In that sense it's a form of bullying and confronting him, albeit wordlessly, was an effective strategy, although not necessarily a sensible one. But sometimes your anger is stronger than your fear and imo that's a powerful weapon in this whole issue, and we need to discover how best to harness our anger to bring about culture change. I've been experiencing and witnessing behaviour like this, and other related things, for nearly half a century now and I'm absolutely fucking sick of it, and more ready for confrontation and change than I have ever been.

And no, it's 'not all men', but it's a substantial minority of them and is very normalised behaviour. I would say the number of men who actively avoid creating a sense of threat is also a clear minority, and the overwhelming majority of men, however witlessly well-meaning they may be, have just never thought about it one way or the other because they don't have to, which is half the problem. Just as all white people, even if not actively racist, benefit from a society in which whiteness confers privilege, so all men benefit from the status quo in a misogynist society. It's not good enough that so many of them plead ignorance, still less so that women do it for them.

There is a lot of talk about how we should educate our partners and sons, which imo is just another way of saying 'this is your problem, you sort it out'. None of what is so offensive about toxic and predatory male behaviour is complicated to understand. Just as the OP turned around and stood her ground, I think it's really time women simply said enough, this has to stop, and demanded the legislative and cultural change that's so clearly needed. Following Sarah Everard's murder, I think society is having a 'moment' in which that might be possible, but it's important not to get fobbed off with empty assurances about non-compulsory crime categorisation schemes and whatnot, and to absolutely reject the namalt crap. All men need to start taking responsibility for the way they think and talk about women, and how they act towards them in both private and public situations.

A prime example would be that if they saw I was alone in a lift and realised they’d be the only one getting with me in late at night, rather than risk me being afraid in a confined space with a strange man they’d say “it’s ok, I can wait for the next one” or if we were already in the lift and were the only two left they’d step out often well before the floor I’d seen them press earlier.. The irony being that the sort of men who care about making sure women aren’t scared are the sort of men you’d be perfectly safe sharing a confined space with.

Every single woman I know has had a negative experience with men, ranging from catcalling or being made to feel uncomfortable, to the most violent sexual assault and abuse. And yet I don’t know a single man who would admit that they, or any of the men they know, are doing these things. So who are these men? I’ll tell you exactly who they are. They aren’t all the obviously creepy weirdos we can all spot from a mile off. They are our fathers, partners, brothers, uncles, sons and friends. Do you think that the man in the OP went home, phoned his mum and told her he’d had a lovely walk and, as an added bonus, he’d managed to frighten a woman? There’s a ‘porn’ site which has been in the British media lots for having videos of actual sexual assaults rather than consensual pornography on it. Who do you think the high numbers of users still watching those videos are? You have no idea whether the men you know are doing this stuff. All you can do is hope.

I know that there are many, many men who are perfectly safe and lovely and would never dream of hurting or frightening a woman. I don’t give a single fuck if I hurt any of their feelings because I’m angry that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of men around the world are an active danger to women. If you’re a ‘namalt’er, why are you directing your anger towards women rather than at the men who are like that?

This threads make me want to weep for my daughters and all women. I am in my 60’s and have certainly experience creepy behaviour from men. But it seems to be getting worse and worse what the hell is happening to the world?

@LuxuryWoman2020

Yes some men do it on purpose and I'm reeling still, having been told two 16 year old boys locally brag about frightening women this way. They enjoy it, they are normal, well brought up kids by which I mean you'd never suspect

Have the families of those boys been made aware of it? If so are they still doing it?

@Lentillover1900: presumably, you were clear you'd dropped a glove, no?

I carry a small camera with me. I use it often, because I enjoy photography. That could be a reason why it's years since this sort of thing happened to me. Still shit heads. Shoudln't have to carry anything. Or do anything. Or modify our behaviour in any way.

During the last 12 months, more people are crossing the road, possibly to avoid getting too close in the first place. Because of CV, I'm either out with a dog, or out with my spouse (because we enjoy walking together) so it's less likely some shit would try this...and how shitty a sentence is that?? Meh.

Faced with a shit like the one in the OP, I'd ask if they'd lost something, get the phone out, and dial husband/teen fast. We already have long-standing code phrases for situations like that. They'd know. I just checked. I

I was walking with dh at a NT place once when a man came literally out of nowhere behind me looking angry and veered off when dh came back to find me (he’d strode off ahead of me). I’ve always wondered what would have happened if I’d been on my own.

We are literally not safe anywhere.

@Sn0tnose

A prime example would be that if they saw I was alone in a lift and realised they’d be the only one getting with me in late at night, rather than risk me being afraid in a confined space with a strange man they’d say “it’s ok, I can wait for the next one” or if we were already in the lift and were the only two left they’d step out often well before the floor I’d seen them press earlier.. The irony being that the sort of men who care about making sure women aren’t scared are the sort of men you’d be perfectly safe sharing a confined space with.

Every single woman I know has had a negative experience with men, ranging from catcalling or being made to feel uncomfortable, to the most violent sexual assault and abuse. And yet I don’t know a single man who would admit that they, or any of the men they know, are doing these things. So who are these men? I’ll tell you exactly who they are. They aren’t all the obviously creepy weirdos we can all spot from a mile off. They are our fathers, partners, brothers, uncles, sons and friends. Do you think that the man in the OP went home, phoned his mum and told her he’d had a lovely walk and, as an added bonus, he’d managed to frighten a woman? There’s a ‘porn’ site which has been in the British media lots for having videos of actual sexual assaults rather than consensual pornography on it. Who do you think the high numbers of users still watching those videos are? You have no idea whether the men you know are doing this stuff. All you can do is hope.

I know that there are many, many men who are perfectly safe and lovely and would never dream of hurting or frightening a woman. I don’t give a single fuck if I hurt any of their feelings because I’m angry that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of men around the world are an active danger to women. If you’re a ‘namalt’er, why are you directing your anger towards women rather than at the men who are like that?

They are our fathers, partners, brothers, uncles, sons and friends. Do you think that the man in the OP went home, phoned his mum and told her he’d had a lovely walk and, as an added bonus, he’d managed to frighten a woman?

This. Sadly, families of men /boys who've abused women and girls like this will usually defend their men/boys to the hilt.

"They wouldn't DO that..."

"NO... that can't be right...

"not my/our fellow."

"She must be making that up/lying"

It's appalling, but my experience of supporting women/girls in that position is that the families of those accused will insist absolutely that their man/boy couldn't possibly behave like that.

It's 2021, and police still ask women and girls who report rape/sexual assault, "What were you wearing?"

Yes, really.

@Fluffycloudland77

I was walking with dh at a NT place once when a man came literally out of nowhere behind me looking angry and veered off when dh came back to find me (he’d strode off ahead of me). I’ve always wondered what would have happened if I’d been on my own.

We are literally not safe anywhere.

Same thing in NT woodland once: I'd gone off the main path to look at something, & emerged back onto the path just as a middle aged bloke & older woman got to the same point. The bloke looked at me with that smirking pleasure & ownership/entitlement, & I was just getting worried when DH appeared - at which point the guy wiped the look off his face & walked away.

On the other hand, I was in my local woods one day on my own walking with my bike, when two young men appeared walking towards me. They both had hoodies on & the hoods up. I thought I was for it & wondered if I could get away on the bike, when they looked up, saw me & immediately made themselves scarce. I guess they were up to some other kind of mischief!

@Sn0tnose

A prime example would be that if they saw I was alone in a lift and realised they’d be the only one getting with me in late at night, rather than risk me being afraid in a confined space with a strange man they’d say “it’s ok, I can wait for the next one” or if we were already in the lift and were the only two left they’d step out often well before the floor I’d seen them press earlier.. The irony being that the sort of men who care about making sure women aren’t scared are the sort of men you’d be perfectly safe sharing a confined space with.

Every single woman I know has had a negative experience with men, ranging from catcalling or being made to feel uncomfortable, to the most violent sexual assault and abuse. And yet I don’t know a single man who would admit that they, or any of the men they know, are doing these things. So who are these men? I’ll tell you exactly who they are. They aren’t all the obviously creepy weirdos we can all spot from a mile off. They are our fathers, partners, brothers, uncles, sons and friends. Do you think that the man in the OP went home, phoned his mum and told her he’d had a lovely walk and, as an added bonus, he’d managed to frighten a woman? There’s a ‘porn’ site which has been in the British media lots for having videos of actual sexual assaults rather than consensual pornography on it. Who do you think the high numbers of users still watching those videos are? You have no idea whether the men you know are doing this stuff. All you can do is hope.

I know that there are many, many men who are perfectly safe and lovely and would never dream of hurting or frightening a woman. I don’t give a single fuck if I hurt any of their feelings because I’m angry that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of men around the world are an active danger to women. If you’re a ‘namalt’er, why are you directing your anger towards women rather than at the men who are like that?

I didn’t share those experiences to suggest NAMALT. More me suggesting it would be much more preferable if men did, as a standard, go out of their way to help foster a safer environment.

I have no wish to start thinking of the men’s feelings in all of this and I’m sorry this wasn’t clear in my post.

Not all men but enough of them that we don't know which ones are atoning to do it and which ones aren't.

Even Jamie Dornan stalked a woman to get into feeling like a serial killer for The Fall www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/apr/01/jamie-dornan-stalked-woman-the-fall

I’m trained in martial arts

But I’m a 5’3 8 stone woman

We get taught how to do defence as such.

I’d love to meet some of these guys who do this with my teacher! His wife is a black belt in jujitsu!

What’s the best response? To confront and say loudly “why are you following me are you aware you are being creepy I am taking a picture to report you under anti harassment legislation” or would that risk a punch in the face? Sunlight and all that.

Yes, that's clearly creepy. Could it have been innocent, of course, maybe he just intended to walk as far as the gate and come back. But I at least would make sure that I left significant space.

@Sandgrown1970 it was clear, don’t worry. Paragraphs two and three of my post were not aimed in your direction at all! Apologies if it read otherwise.

Be very careful getting your phone out.

I’ve heard of guys taking them and then you’ve got no way of getting help

I really wish if anything. You’ll watch some videos in self defence. It could save your life.

Even Jamie Dornan stalked a woman to get into feeling like a serial killer for The Fall

Gross.

Relatedly, Dornan also said this ... so perhaps not that big of a surprise

I consider myself quite light-hearted, pretty easy-going, and I keep playing sick psychopath bastards! It kinda worries me sometimes how comfortable I am in that zone.
www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/mar/18/jamie-dornan-i-keep-playing-sick-psychopaths-it-worries-me

That post ginger. What the actual F? And there are posters on another thread harping on about how we shouldn't be overly vigilant, were hysterical, yada yada. Yet there's the bragging evidence that some are openly trying to frighten women and gloating about it on SM.

Hope you're ok OP X

@Clyment is exactly right

Not all men but enough of them that we don't know which ones are atoning to do it and which ones aren't

I went for my run and by the entrance to the recreation ground was a guy sitting on his bike. He could, obviously, have been quite innocently just sitting there. But it spooked me out, so I turned round and ran back the way I'd come. Another woman was running towards me, so I waited till she came past and then ran with her, so I could run past the guy.

He could have been anyone's husband/brother/uncle/son and could have been entirely harmless. But I didn't know that

Which is the whole point. We can't spot the ones who are harmful and distinguish them from the ones who are harmless.

@mathanxiety

Yes some men do it on purpose and I'm reeling still, having been told two 16 year old boys locally brag about frightening women this way. They enjoy it, they are normal, well brought up kids by which I mean you'd never suspect

They're not normal.

They're not well brought up.

There is something seriously wrong with them and with the homes they were brought up in.

Yes, lets give up on the idea that you have to be a certain class or standing to be well brought up. As we know from the reports about public schools this week, your parents can be very well off, and your boys can look "well brought up" but they are unpleasantly misogynistic to girls their own age.

Yes that does reflect their schooling and parenting - given every advantage, they still have girls as lesser beings.These houses aren't better, they just hide misogyny better.

[quote BIWI]@Clyment is exactly right

Not all men but enough of them that we don't know which ones are atoning to do it and which ones aren't

I went for my run and by the entrance to the recreation ground was a guy sitting on his bike. He could, obviously, have been quite innocently just sitting there. But it spooked me out, so I turned round and ran back the way I'd come. Another woman was running towards me, so I waited till she came past and then ran with her, so I could run past the guy.

He could have been anyone's husband/brother/uncle/son and could have been entirely harmless. But I didn't know that

Which is the whole point. We can't spot the ones who are harmful and distinguish them from the ones who are harmless.[/quote]
Exactly! What this PP says is entirely correct. We just cannot know if men are dangerous or not. Men are the most likely to attack people, whether it be women or other men. Sad, but true.

Coming from a guy, yes of course we know that is creepy.

This is my major problem with the teach your son not to rape, dont teach your daughter to defend herself.
They know what they are doing is wrong hence people doing it deliberately, so educating them from a young age will do nothing, as they already know it is unacceptable.

I do think recent events have made most men, myself included aware of our presence and the possible implication that can have on womens feeling of safety.

Unfortunately though it's getting to a point where I can feel guilty for doing absolutely nothing wrong and am becoming very self conscious with how I conduct myself.

Not as scary because I was in a public place, but I was walking in the street once and there were three students coming towards me. One of them started jumping and shouting just so he could laugh at my startled reaction. Some young men are bastards.