Daughters carer refused covid vaccine

[Nevic84]

My daughter 6 has multiple health needs mainly a tracheostomy but also a weakened immune system and minor heart defect.
She’s a happy and otherwise healthy child.
But she’s classed as clinically extremely vulnerable.
She has 1:1 carers as her condition is life threatening.
Her main carer has refused covid vaccine.
Not for any religious or health reasons she doesn’t want to be bullied into having it and if she gets it she’ll get it when she wants and not before (her words)
In her personal life she’s not following covid restrictions and having people over her house and going into other peoples house and visiting public places a lot only wearing mask when mandatory.
What’s peoples opinions and how would they deal with it?
Aibu to think if you work in care you would care enough to want to protect those who couldn’t be protected?
I worry about my daughter everyday I feel scared for her.
As an employer I can’t force her to have it.

[quote Cokie3]@Miasicarisatia Only for those who work with sick and vulnerable people. Apparently it's already compulsory for nurses to Hepatitis vaccine, so what's the difference with one more vaccine being compulsory for Healthcare workers? I don't think it's unreasonable for people who care for sick and immune compromised people to have the vaccine as a term of their employment.[/quote]
I agree with you... Well i'm not exactly in favour of mandatory vaccinations, but it seems reasonable that people working in care are required or expected to be vaccinated against covid
I think it's a kind of 'human nature' problem, if you're paid poorly and the work is demanding it's hard not to feel resentful and push back in a knee-jerk if given orders
However much you are morally in the right unless you have some leverage you don't have many options🤷🏼‍♀️ ultimately dont we need to push for better pay and recognition for care workers?

@Dobbyafreeelf

there's a difference between CHOOSING not to have a vaccine and not being able to have it on medical grounds though.

I agree up to a point but the risk to the cared for person remains the same.

I'm not disputing the need for the vaccine
Good!

but I am uncomfortable with having to share private medical information with clients.
I would be too. But all your clients need to know is whether you have been vaccinated or not, not why. And if you've not been vaccinated then they can reasonably request a different carer without being unreasonably discriminatory.

Especially when there are options to routinely be testing for covid, and very quickly.
The problem with testing is that someone could test negative whilst incubating COVID. So could still pass on the virus even if they have a negative test.

It's also a different matter taking someone on with having the vaccine as a condition and forcing an existing employee who hasn't agreed to that as a condition of employment.

See what you're saying but if the vaccine didn't exist when the existing employee started, it would hardly be in their conditions. I'm not sure a court would have an issue with it, because it is a reasonable request.

[quote Dobbyafreeelf]@RockingMyFiftiesNot there's a difference between CHOOSING not to have a vaccine and not being able to have it on medical grounds though.
I'm not disputing the need for the vaccine but I am uncomfortable with having to share private medical information with clients. Especially when there are options to routinely be testing for covid, and very quickly.
It's also a different matter taking someone on with having the vaccine as a condition and forcing an existing employee who hasn't agreed to that as a condition of employment. [/quote]
It’s no longer ‘private medical information’ if it results in a heightened (or diminished) risk to your client’s physical wellbeing. Your ‘private’ decision has consequences. I don’t get why that isn’t obvious.

[quote SakuraEdenSwan1]@Cokie3 no I am not trolling, enforcing medical procedures you are all happy to go along with, where does it stop?

I am CEV and a trained nurse, I too have refused the vaccine because years of experience tells me that it is not safe or enough know about it. And I also would like to ask how a carer is looking after a trachy? This should be done by qualified staff only.
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Strange comment about trachy care. I know a number of parents who look after their child’s trachy because as far as I know the NHS doesn’t provide each child with 24 hour “qualified staff”. Who do you think looks after a trachy when a child is at school? Do you think the school phones 999 and asks for “qualified staff” to attend because a trachy needs urgent attention? A carer who has been working with a child for a number of years will in all likelihood have received training in trachy care, and probably have had as much if not more experience than many “qualified staff”.

[quote Lavanderrose]@Voice0fReason the thing is there might be people who cannot have the vaccine due to medical issues. Thus it could be seen as discrimination.[/quote]
@Lavanderrose, no. Discrimination only applies to the 9 protected characteristics. Not being able to have a vaccine is not one of those. The closest possibility there might be is if the person had a medical condition that could be classed as a disability. However, it is still legal to discriminate if it achieves a legitimate aim. There are some jobs that disabled people just cannot do.

the thing is there might be people who cannot have the vaccine due to medical issues. Thus it could be seen as discrimination

@Lavanderrose having medical issues doesn't automatically mean you are being discriminated against when things don't go your way. Would it be discriminatory if a taxi firm refused to employ a driver who couldn't see? Of course not, it would be unreasonable to expect them to do that. I'd argue that it is also unreasonable to employ a carer who would put a vulnerable client at risk, whatever the reason was they weren't vaccinated.

@Dobbyafreeelf Informing a client or employer that you've had the vaccine is hardly sharing personal health information. It's not like you've been asked your entire personal medical history.

I'm a carer, I work with some very vulnerable people and have a high risk child at home.
I have had my vaccine but prosponed getting it by a few months because I am breastfeeding and guidance advised against it initially.
My employer started asking weekly if I had weened my toddler so I could get vaccinated.
Just because you work in care doesn't mean you should be forced to get something.
My clients are on the list of priorities but they are below my family. As my family and indeed myself are not the first priority to my clients.
That being said her disregard of the rules would really concern me and I believe that is what should be your focus.
There is also no excuse for not wearing full PPE, we have been doing it for a year and yes we look daft but we are adults so woman up and get on with it, it's for our protection too.

[quote Dobbyafreeelf]@Cokie3 no it really isn't that simple. It's discrimination whether you like it or not![/quote]
Then what happens in hospitals?

They have to have hepatitis and possibly MMR?

@Nanny0gg & @Cokie3 we are talking about a vaccination which is not being given to pregnant women, those breast feeding or women ttc. Many many other vaccines are safe to be given in pregnancy and indeed this one maybe someday. There are valid reasons why someone CANT have the vaccine right now.

Basically the Op is wanting rid of a woman who - for reasons she may not be willing to share just now - does not want or can't have the vaccine. The Op doesn't have the right to know why. Whose to say the carer isn't pregnant or ttc and the OP is unaware. Should someone loose their livelihood based on being pregnant? No I think you would find that IS discrimination.

Yes there are vaccinations that NHS and others are required to have. However those vaccinations have been around for a long time. Proven safe in pregnancy and other medical situations which we don't yet have for the covid vaccine. What isn't ok is in a very short space of time forcing people in certain industries to have a vaccine or not work when the advise is for an individual not to have the vaccine. There is no legal or contractual requirement for nhs or care workers to have the flu jab nor is there for covid.

It's illegal to force anyone to have any medical procedure in this country without their informed consent.

No one is suggesting vaccinating the carer when she's not looking

@RockingMyFiftiesNot

It's illegal to force anyone to have any medical procedure in this country without their informed consent.

No one is suggesting vaccinating the carer when she's not looking

Perhaps someone should. She wouldn't feel a thing. joking,not joking

@Dobbyafreeelf That isn't strictly true. My friend is pregnant with a heart condition, and has been vaccinated. I'm breastfeeding and will be having the vaccine as soon as my cohort (I'm 35) is eligible. My friend with a pacemaker, also breastfeeding, has been vaccinated today.

[quote Covidwoes]@Dobbyafreeelf That isn't strictly true. My friend is pregnant with a heart condition, and has been vaccinated. I'm breastfeeding and will be having the vaccine as soon as my cohort (I'm 35) is eligible. My friend with a pacemaker, also breastfeeding, has been vaccinated today. [/quote]
@Covidwoes the vast majority of pregnant women cannot have the vaccine. CEV women the rules may be different but certainly they are not for care staff who are not vulnerable.

Here's some information on what the potential claim is worth. I'm not trying to say it's impossible to dismiss her but please get proper advice if this is the route you want to take www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/discrimination-at-work/taking-action/work-out-how-much-compensation-you-could-get-for-discrimination/

It's not discriminatory to not employ someone because they haven't had a Covid vaccination though! It's not a protected characteristic so I'm not sure why you're linking to that. This is the relevant link
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at-work/employment-tribunals-from-29-july-2013/employment-tribunals-valuing-a-claim/compensatory-award/calculating-the-compensatory-award/employment-tribunals-is-your-compensatory-award-below-the-cap-and-will-any-welfare-benefits-you-ve-received-reduce-it/

It's very unfair to expose other people to liability. You can't possibly know the level of damages she might be exposed to. Lawyers make far more off people who choose to take action without proper advice than those who preempt issues and avoid making mistakes in thee situations.

I do have an idea of what the damages are because I know what the maximum claim is if someone goes to an employment tribunal regarding unfair dismissal . It is one years salary at the most. This would not be a discrimination case.

Here's some information on what the potential claim is worth. I'm not trying to say it's impossible to dismiss her but please get proper advice if this is the route you want to take www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/discrimination-at-work/taking-action/work-out-how-much-compensation-you-could-get-for-discrimination/

It's not discriminatory to not employ someone because they haven't had a Covid vaccination though! It's not a protected characteristic so I'm not sure why you're linking to that. This is the relevant link
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at-work/employment-tribunals-from-29-july-2013/employment-tribunals-valuing-a-claim/compensatory-award/calculating-the-compensatory-award/employment-tribunals-is-your-compensatory-award-below-the-cap-and-will-any-welfare-benefits-you-ve-received-reduce-it/

It's very unfair to expose other people to liability. You can't possibly know the level of damages she might be exposed to. Lawyers make far more off people who choose to take action without proper advice than those who preempt issues and avoid making mistakes in thee situations.

It's very unfair to tell people that they would be guilty of discrimination for trying to protect their daughters life . I do have an idea of what the damages are because I know what the maximum claim is if someone goes to an employment tribunal regarding unfair dismissal . It is one years salary at the most. This would not be a discrimination case.

[quote Dobbyafreeelf]**@Nanny0gg* & @Cokie3* we are talking about a vaccination which is not being given to pregnant women, those breast feeding or women ttc. Many many other vaccines are safe to be given in pregnancy and indeed this one maybe someday. There are valid reasons why someone CANT have the vaccine right now.

Basically the Op is wanting rid of a woman who - for reasons she may not be willing to share just now - does not want or can't have the vaccine. The Op doesn't have the right to know why. Whose to say the carer isn't pregnant or ttc and the OP is unaware. Should someone loose their livelihood based on being pregnant? No I think you would find that IS discrimination.

Yes there are vaccinations that NHS and others are required to have. However those vaccinations have been around for a long time. Proven safe in pregnancy and other medical situations which we don't yet have for the covid vaccine. What isn't ok is in a very short space of time forcing people in certain industries to have a vaccine or not work when the advise is for an individual not to have the vaccine. There is no legal or contractual requirement for nhs or care workers to have the flu jab nor is there for covid.
[/quote]
If OP doesn't know that she is pregnant then she would not be guilty of discrimination.

Furthermore, the carer has specifically said that she doesn't want to be vaccinated. She has not said that it is because she is pregnant and if it was for that reason then why mention that she wasn't going to be vaccinated? She could have kept quiet about the whole thing.

My carer is a women over 50.
I don’t want rid of her. She’s brilliant at what she dose but the vaccine is making me think twice.

@Nevic84 I think you need to weigh up the pros and cons. She’s great at her job, she has a good relationship with your daughter, is she reliable? Do you see her leaving anytime soon? I just think that on balance, it would be better not to get rid of her right now. Recruitment is not easy for these type of jobs. Who knows, perhaps in the future she will get the vaccine. Especially if the government start introducing these vaccine passports.

@Nevic84

My carer is a women over 50. I don’t want rid of her. She’s brilliant at what she dose but the vaccine is making me think twice.

Yet she isn’t willing to take the care to protect your dd.

She isn’t willing to do whatever she absolutely knows she should to keep her safe

She won’t have a vaccine either

She’s not brilliant. She’s a liability

[quote Dobbyafreeelf]**@Nanny0gg* & @Cokie3* we are talking about a vaccination which is not being given to pregnant women, those breast feeding or women ttc. Many many other vaccines are safe to be given in pregnancy and indeed this one maybe someday. There are valid reasons why someone CANT have the vaccine right now.

Basically the Op is wanting rid of a woman who - for reasons she may not be willing to share just now - does not want or can't have the vaccine. The Op doesn't have the right to know why. Whose to say the carer isn't pregnant or ttc and the OP is unaware. Should someone loose their livelihood based on being pregnant? No I think you would find that IS discrimination.

Yes there are vaccinations that NHS and others are required to have. However those vaccinations have been around for a long time. Proven safe in pregnancy and other medical situations which we don't yet have for the covid vaccine. What isn't ok is in a very short space of time forcing people in certain industries to have a vaccine or not work when the advise is for an individual not to have the vaccine. There is no legal or contractual requirement for nhs or care workers to have the flu jab nor is there for covid.
[/quote]
@Dobbyafreeelf Have you read the OP's posts? She knows the carer. She knows her attitude. This has nothing to do with pregnancy. You are now flailing about for excuses. It's getting ridiculous. And yes, as it is putting HER DAUGHTER at risk, she very much has the right to know why.

@Nevic84

My carer is a women over 50. I don’t want rid of her. She’s brilliant at what she dose but the vaccine is making me think twice.

@Nevic84

She’s brilliant at what she dose
ALL EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY!!

I don’t want rid of her.

and

the vaccine is making me think twice.

That you don't even seem to be worried that she mixes freely against the rules, that she won't wear a mask with your daughter at school shows to me a lack of maternal instinct in you. It's like you don't even care much. Most mothers wouldn't let her inside the house with the MAJOR, MAJOR risks with your daughter's health that she takes. You're only just thinking twice? You really don't seem to be all that worried at all OP, your lack of maternal worry and care stands out. Even all the posts telling you to get rid and to put your child first hasn't snapped you out of your casual carefree attitude and make you wake up and act.

She can't be the only good carer out there. Each time she cares for your child then she's putting her life at risk.