Daughters carer refused covid vaccine

[Nevic84]

My daughter 6 has multiple health needs mainly a tracheostomy but also a weakened immune system and minor heart defect.
She’s a happy and otherwise healthy child.
But she’s classed as clinically extremely vulnerable.
She has 1:1 carers as her condition is life threatening.
Her main carer has refused covid vaccine.
Not for any religious or health reasons she doesn’t want to be bullied into having it and if she gets it she’ll get it when she wants and not before (her words)
In her personal life she’s not following covid restrictions and having people over her house and going into other peoples house and visiting public places a lot only wearing mask when mandatory.
What’s peoples opinions and how would they deal with it?
Aibu to think if you work in care you would care enough to want to protect those who couldn’t be protected?
I worry about my daughter everyday I feel scared for her.
As an employer I can’t force her to have it.

A new carer would have the paperwork/certificate showing they were vaccinated.

What paperwork?

@SoupDragon

A new carer would have the paperwork/certificate showing they were vaccinated.

What paperwork?

The card, the sticker?

Come on op this isn't an issue you can tip toe around. Your daughter has serious medical concerns and her catching covid-19 could be seriously devastating outcome. I urge you to start contacting the care agencies to find a replacement.

As a parent of a child who had a trachy for over three years from being only a few weeks old, I am incensed at some of the ignorant replies on here.

Those of you who bang on about the carer's rights obviously cannot and refuse to understand just how much easier it is for a child with a trachy to pick up infections. Even a simple cold would land DD in hospital. I’m looking at you @SakuraEdenSwan1 . And ignore XenoBitch who is very much anti vaccination.

Nose breathers who can wear masks have the humidity and hairs in their noses to "trap" bacteria and viruses. The addition of a mask adds another level of protection. A child with a trachy has nothing between the air that they breathe and their lungs, unless they are on humidity and oxygen.

A new carer would have the paperwork/certificate showing they were vaccinated

What paperwork?

You get a little card when you have had your vaccination giving the date and which type you have had.

I’m not saying your cater is doing the right thing by any stretch of the imagination but a few things jump out at me.

1. Your career is telling you she’s flouting lock down rules the next one may still flout them but just not tell you. Our trust sends us emails asking us to follow them but that is all they can do. They cannot police people outside of work.

Secondly I’m assuming she’s has fully PPE available when she does anything with the trache suctioning etc is an aerosol generating procedure. I know from a friend who employs carers to look after children that she expects them to wear masks goggles all the time and gloves and aprons when doing any direct care this applies across the NHS (we are following world health/public health England guild lines) regardless of age of the patient. It’s to protect the patient and the staff. Assuming your providing the equipment (which you should be or you could face serious consequences if she caught covid from your DD) she has a legal duty to wear it under the health and safety at work act. Thirdly at present I know a few HCPs who’ve not had the vaccine for a variety of legit and ridiculous reasons there is nothing we can currently do. It is their choice. Fourthly I a paediatric nurse children thankfully are exceptionally low risk even those with exceedingly significant underlying health issues we have had some very sick children including oncology patients with little or no functioning immune system test positive and not even been unwell bar a runny nose. Friends work in the community with the very frail and elderly all were high risk until being vaccinated all had carers often 4 times a day apparently a significant number are refusing their vaccination and generally no one knows what they do outside of work. I’m not saying it right but it is what it is. As others have said if you’ve had her less than two years you could probably fire her more than two years your going to find it hard. But how easily can you get another one? Another friend works in you’re area and spends approximately 3 months training carers to look after children like your daughter, can you do this? I’m sure you’ve done this but Im going to say it anyway have you actually sat down and discussed the whole situation with your carer? It never ceases to amaze me how dense some people are unable to see the consequences of their actions until pointed out to them if she’s a good reliable career who has a good relationship with your daughter this would be my first line of approach perhaps then with a bit of leverage if she continues e.g. I’m not sure that I’d be happy for you to continue caring for my DD if you don’t have the vaccine stop flouting the rules etc.

@SakuraEdenSwan1

It's none of your business what she does, good on her for refusing the vaccine.

It is when she's supposed to me a carer for a clinically vulnerable child.

If she had genuine concerns about the vaccine I'd feel a smidge of pity for her, but her response is pure selfishness and defiance, and puts your daughter at risk.

You do realise this is a safeguarding issue regardless of the vaccine?

If they have been with you for years why are you only just now concerned with her not follow Covid rules? You have had a full year to ask her to change or find a new carer. I find it strange that only now are you worried?

@Lullaby88

Yeh i wouldnt use her. Get someone new. But iv read that theyre going to make it mandatory for care workers to get the vaccine. Not sure when.

I'm a bit gobsmacked it's not mandatory already, tbh.

My mate works in a care home and they were all told they had to have it. She wanted it anyway, so not an issue for her, but staff were led to believe they would be fired if they refused.

Mind you, a lot of care homes seem to be pretty shit employers.

@SoupDragon

A new carer would have the paperwork/certificate showing they were vaccinated.

What paperwork?

I have a card with the dates I had mine and the type (Pfizer).

I would have got rid when I'd found out she wasn't following guidelines then coming to care for my CEV child.

This is a definite case of no jab no job.

No way on earth would I stick with this!

I too would have binned her the second I knew she wasn’t following the rules

This is your daughter, that’s who you stand up for, that’s who’s important

You can do this.

Her body her choice?
Your daughter YOUR choice

Just want to add assuming your providing the masks etc for her to wear in school do a 1:1 formally request that she wears it hopefully reiterating what you’ve already told her then explain if she still fails to wear it you will have no choice but to put her through a disciplinary procedure, I read somewhere once that something like 70% of staff leave within 6 months of a disciplinary and from my experience many don’t even make it to the disciplinary hearing going off sick then resigning. Put it in writing and give her a copy and keep one yourself. You could also raise your concerns about her not having the vaccine/activities out of work but I very much doubt you can formalise this. Breaking the rules is a police matter (it seems most police only issue fines etc for persistent offenders or those who refuse to cooperate) not an employer matter and there is currently no contractual obligation for any employee to have the vaccine.

[quote SakuraEdenSwan1]@Cokie3 no I am not trolling, enforcing medical procedures you are all happy to go along with, where does it stop?

I am CEV and a trained nurse, I too have refused the vaccine because years of experience tells me that it is not safe or enough know about it. And I also would like to ask how a carer is looking after a trachy? This should be done by qualified staff only.
[/quote]
And I also would like to ask how a carer is looking after a trachy? This should be done by qualified staff only.

Where does that ^ come from?

Trachy care is performed by people who are trachy competent, I have met many nurses who have never looked after a child with a trachy and many carers who are much more competent and 'qualified' to care for a trachy than most nurses.

I hope this carer is wearing more than just an FFP3 mask when doing trachy care. There should be goggles, gloves & apron too.

My son has carers on a 2:1 ratio. I haven’t asked them if they’ve been vaccinated. Its their choice. It’s not proven that you can’t pass the virus on. Regular testing is vital and they do that. I’d rather know they were negative when supporting him. I think vaccines may give people a false sense of security.

"I wish it would become mandatory."

Disgusting that you think bodily autonomy should be taken away OP, Be careful what you wish for - it's a slippery slope.

I agree with the poster that asked why this is suddenly such an issue when she's been caring for the child all throughout the pandemic. The risk has not changed.

She'd have been gone months ago.

I’m not sure this is a safe guarding issue.
A carer is not registered with a professional body this has not legal framework to work under.
Lastly people in patient/client facing roles will be bending/breaking covid rules I know quite a few HCPs who are openly “bending” (at best) or breaking (at worst) the rules I don’t necessarily agree but I don’t condone. The issue is far from black and white.

Trachy care is performed by people who are trachy competent, I have met many nurses who have never looked after a child with a trachy and many carers who are much more competent and 'qualified' to care for a trachy than most nurses.

This ^^
It would appear that SakuraEdenSwan1 knows less about trachy care than I do, having looked after a child with a trachy for over three years.

I understand your concern, especially with regards lack of social distancing/masks etc too.

With regards to what you can do, I think it depends on your contract with her and how long she has been working with you. She is within her rights to decline a vaccine, but given the potential implications of her decision fir your daughter (and your family), I can understand why you would want to replace her. My only caution would be that in order to do so without ending up with another headache, I think you need to check your contract with her carefully before taking any action (assuming her contract is with you directly and she is not employed by a care provider with whom you have a contract to provide care for your daughter). I’d also get proper legal advice as to what you can and can’t demand in terms of vaccination/health and safety, and whether you have grounds to sack her.

@Ivy455

"I wish it would become mandatory."

Disgusting that you think bodily autonomy should be taken away OP, Be careful what you wish for - it's a slippery slope.

I agree with the poster that asked why this is suddenly such an issue when she's been caring for the child all throughout the pandemic. The risk has not changed.

@Ivy455 This has nothing at all to do with bodily autonomy! It is about rules and qualifications to do a job, and if you don't meet them, you shouldn't be doing that job. It's that simple! There are already jobs where you have to have certain vaccines to be able to do the job. This has been the case for decades. Nothing even remotely to do with bodily autonomy.

Um, perhaps because a) she didn't know the carer wasn't abiding by the law, and b) there is now a vaccine - there wasn't a vaccine a year ago. The circumstances have changed.

@tiredwardsister

I’m not sure this is a safe guarding issue. A carer is not registered with a professional body this has not legal framework to work under. Lastly people in patient/client facing roles will be bending/breaking covid rules I know quite a few HCPs who are openly “bending” (at best) or breaking (at worst) the rules I don’t necessarily agree but I don’t condone. The issue is far from black and white.

A carer not working within the scope of competency delegated by a registered nurse ie not wearing PPE?

Willfully putting at child at risk of significant harm by doing so.

Raises all sorts of questions about what else she chooses not to do.

@DareIask

As you're using Direct Payments you should also speak to your social worker, and definitely the HCP (community nurse?) responsible for her trache

I don't think it'll be you stopping her working with your daughter then

This is a sensible approach.

I would just get rid of her if you can find another carer. She can't do anything about it she's worked you for less than two years. Even if it's been more than that time you can still dismiss her and all she can do is try and take you to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal. I doubt she would get anywhere if she did that but even if she does it's a maximum of one years salary.