My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

@Covidatemyhomework

But it isn’t all men. And I say that as a woman who is cautious when walking home from the pub, and only takes routes I feel are safe. Why group all men together. It’s ridiculous and the world has gone bloody mad in my opinion. People aren’t allowed to express their own opinion any more if it goes against the ‘accepted/loudly shouted norm’ - I’m scared of the world we are entering into.

Nobody is saying it's all men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*He accepts women are more likely to be victims of sexually motivated crime but he hates the whole anti male movement that he perceives is happening at the moment.

There is a definite feeling that men - good men - aren’t allowed to have opinions about anything like this that slightly differ from the hardline feminist viewpoint without being told they’re one of the bad ones.*

The thing is, if he's more concerned about how this negatively affects men and derails the conversation to focus on that element, then he IS making himself one of the bad one's. He is entitled to his opinion, but if that is what he chooses to think and do then he is marking himself out as part of the problem, because silencing women with whataboutery, and ensuring the conversation is repositioned to focus on the men, is a huge and active part of why men have continued to get away with this behaviour for so long.

Covidatemyhomework
But it isn’t all men

Can you show us the people who are saying it’s all men, because I can’t find them?

Men very much can be hysterical more so than women.. Well the men in my family can be and I tell them if they are acting hysterical as well.

We don't have to as women own the word hysterical.

Fgs research the word hysterical, I quite frankly don't want to own a male label that is steeped in appalling mysogynistic history.

The thing is, if he's more concerned about how this negatively affects men and derails the conversation to focus on that element, then he IS making himself one of the bad one's. He is entitled to his opinion, but if that is what he chooses to think and do then he is marking himself out as part of the problem, because silencing women with whataboutery, and ensuring the conversation is repositioned to focus on the men, is a huge and active part of why men have continued to get away with this behaviour for so long

Absolutely this.

@BigFatLiar in which case being understanding and empathetic to the feelings of his family would go a lot further than to get on his hackles and try and violently protest his innocence... no?

It's mine field and people are entitled to their opinons.

What hurts is when the person you love and are connected has a different opinion to yours.

It's a hard one with 'not all men' - having been sexual assualted. I do view 'ALL MEN' with caution, I hate walking in the dark, when I have to, I am constantly aware of my surroudings etc, not have my music on, walk the route I'd like to etc.

Recently someone we know had an incidient of sexual assualt: My DH apologised on behalf of men. It spoke great volumes to me.

I agree strongly with your dh. That does not take away from the experiences and the threat from other men. I look at my dh and the other males I have in my life and I put them in the category of Not all men too. I think you and your dd need to be more open minded and respect another opinion.

@RolloTomassi

You're overreacting. He expressed a different view in his own home and is now considered an "extremist" by the woman who knows him best and presumably thinks he's a good person, or you wouldn't be married to him.

Like it or not a lot of perfectly decent, law-abiding men hold a similar view. As with everything, their view won't change by being shouted down.

This. OP you know whether or not he’s a good person. Don’t let the political impact your personal relationships.

@NVision

People are so worked up here about notallmen but then many of you were screaming all lives matter back in the Summer.

Hypocrites.

Hopefully those same women, of whom there were too many, will get it now. Unless they are of course racist.

try and violently protest his innocence

It doesn't say the DH was violent though? He was just being transparent, saying that he was scared of being attacked

I agree strongly with your dh. That does not take away from the experiences and the threat from other men. I look at my dh and the other males I have in my life and I put them in the category of Not all men too. I think you and your dd need to be more open minded and respect another opinion

For fuck sake 🙄 women discussing violence against them is closed minded now?!!

@tangerinelollipop

I think most men will have done something that is causing them to feel a bit ashamed and defensive

And maybe a lot haven't. The problem in my view is the generalisation and stereotyping. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't advise our DDs to be cautious because there is real danger out there. Both statements are not mutually exclusive.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't advise our DAUGHTERS to be cautious? Well that missed the point entirely.

@TheJerkStore

Women do not have an unspoken curfew.

Most women do. Most women feel unsafe going out after dark.

As a woman I find it so depressing to read how we have become this stereotypical hysterical women. Yes we have to be careful, yes there are dangers out there but to make our young women scared of all men is insane.

Calling women hysterical for getting angry about the issue of endemic male violence against women is textbook misogyny.
Women are belittled, sexually harassed, raped and murdered by men every day - this make me angry. It should make everyone angry.

Back in the days when we could go out, I used to have make sure I left in time to get home before 1am, when they turn our streetlights out.

I once left it much later, couldn't park anywhere near my house, and had to walk half the length of the street in absolute pitch blackness. I nearly shat myself when I heard a weird sniffling, heavy breathing sort of noise, and then nearly pissed myself when the PIR light came on outside a house and I realised that the heavy breather was a hedghog.

I live in a very safe, very low crime area but it's still unpleasant. It's so dark you can't see where the kerb is or anything. I'm very streetwise, and when I lived in Croydon I used to think nothing of walking home alone late at night, or leaving evening meetings at nearly midnight in the middle of Brixton and walking to my car parked in a side street.

But I still feel very uncomfortable in a street with no streetlights (oddly, not in a country lane, because I expect that, although I do carry a small torch if I know I'm going to be in a rural area after dark).

It's enough men though. Not all, but enough that 98% of women have been sexually harassed. It's not some minuscule fraction of men, it's more than enough.

Yes, we absolutely should advise our daughters to be cautious (sorry if my comment wasn't clear)

Recently someone we know had an incidient of sexual assualt: My DH apologised on behalf of men. It spoke great volumes to me

Why would he do this?

It’s so meaningless, almost insulting.

What does he have to do with your friend’s sexual assault? Is he a rapist? Did he decline to prosecute the rapist?

How does this make things any better for her? One man said he’s sorry about something he didn’t do and (presumably) would never do?

I’d want to slap the shit out of anyone who did that to me. Infuriating

ancientgran I think you misunderstand, none of them said they would assault a woman and if there was any suggestion they they would not be in my house.

@UsedUpUsername

He works with women and even a transsexual officer

Even a transsexual officer 🤦‍♀️

This is simple. Men think of themselves as individuals and not part of a group. So it feels like a personal attack.

Haha after I read that back I cringed, I was trying to point out openly transsexual police officers are a rarity and my husband would defend her to the hilt if anyone was using micro aggressions around him when she wasn’t there (they generally don’t, whilst she openly says she suffered hostility initially she says things are much more progressive now and she rarely has to educate within the force although it does still happen” anyway I was just badly trying to say he’s not a bigot or sexist generally! Apologise for my shitty turn of phrase

I do understand that men feel as if they are all being branded as “dangerous” and I understand why they may be feeling uneasy about it. Not all men are abusers but I would say it’s possible for any man to become abusive and dangerous.

I am single with 2 teenagers, I have suffered so much abuse over the years, some that I thought was just ‘normal’ and something women have to put up with, I was first abused at 14. I was talking to dd (17) a few days ago and telling her how it wasn’t ok to except this kind of behaviour as being ‘normal’, I told her about a incident that happened when I was her age, I was working as a waitress at a very posh hotel and was waiting outside at the end of my shift for my mum to pick me up, a drunk young man came out and started chatting me up and touching me, got right in my face. At the time I didn’t think much of it as it was something that happened often but thinking about it now it was so wrong. I told dd that this behaviour is never right and not something us as women should have to put up with.

I do worry for my teenage daughters, they both have autism and can be somewhat naive but I also don’t want to make them fearful of all men, I want them to be aware of the dangers.

Can anyone answer this for me, slight tangent? I was chatting with 2 friends today ( not in the UK, so I was allowed, but I'm British so I follow UK news) and I mentioned the tongue in cheek 6pm curfew idea. As I said to them, it's obviously not going to happen but it's kind of.a good idea... as it would sort out the problem of stranger sexual assault and murder nicely: men could be allowed out if they were going to work, or had a good reason, or if they were escorted by a woman. Like OP's daughter said, it sounds radical but it's exactly what women are already doing.
The 2 friends looked quite taken aback as if I had said something pretty bad, I felt quite ashamed actually, as they said it's not just women who get attacked, men do too and it's under reported so we dont know about it. I was left feeling like I'm really wrong in what I said as I hadn't really thought about women on men sexual assault. One of them later explained it's like domestic violence, as think of women as mainly experiencing violence but obviously we know men do too.
Anyway I thought fair enough, obviously I hadn't thought of it but I was wrong. Then I thought some more and concluded that perhaps what they were talking about was the general under reporting of the sexual violence that men experience, but perhaps not much of it is perpetrated by women. I looked it up and although there is sexual assault by women on men, it looks like a big chunk of is is coercion type things, which while probably wrong, are nothing like violent rape, or non violent rape. So I wondered if the whole thing was being muddied a bit by my friends and kind of diluting the serious nature of sexual violence against women.
Any wise words, mumsnet? I feel like it's something in the area of trans women using women's toilets, perhaps quite divisive feminism? I'm not educated enough about these things though and nor are my friends, which is why I'm posting here!

I think the phrase is lazy and intentionally so. It is a headline grabbing phrase to generate awareness of the issue.

I think that when men who are not the problem, appear to be branded within the same group, then they will naturally defend themselves.

When we had the terrorist attacks, the local muslim commnuity condemmed the attacks, saying that not all muslims were like this.

This was accpeted, and taken onboard, so why can't the same logic be applied here?

In addition, in an ideal world, then yes, we should be able to walk wherever and whenever we like. I am a 6'1 male, I used to live in an area of a city that was far from safe. I took extra precautions, kept to busy roads, and very very rarley walked around in the ealry hours of the morning. Even with this, I was help up at knife point twice, and chased on multiple occasions.

@aSofaNearYou

*He accepts women are more likely to be victims of sexually motivated crime but he hates the whole anti male movement that he perceives is happening at the moment.

There is a definite feeling that men - good men - aren’t allowed to have opinions about anything like this that slightly differ from the hardline feminist viewpoint without being told they’re one of the bad ones.*

The thing is, if he's more concerned about how this negatively affects men and derails the conversation to focus on that element, then he IS making himself one of the bad one's. He is entitled to his opinion, but if that is what he chooses to think and do then he is marking himself out as part of the problem, because silencing women with whataboutery, and ensuring the conversation is repositioned to focus on the men, is a huge and active part of why men have continued to get away with this behaviour for so long.

Your last paragraph sums up my feelings absolutely

He's reacting to the expectation of change rippling outwards, to the extent its waves are lapping at his feet. That's never happened to him before. He's been safely 'one of the good ones', with 'the bad ones' distinctly 'over there'. For the first time he feels there's an expectation on him to change, or at least examine his behaviour, and he's not comfortable with that, because he's one of the good ones.

I think the most useful perspective for him to consider, would be how he can help make things better? It's a positive perspective and is about how he can help create a safer, more inclusive culture, by challenging other men on poor behaviour, on the normalisation of porn, for example.

It's saying 'you can be part of the solution, why wouldn't you want to do that?'. It remains true though, that if you't not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I have a young ds aged 9 and I do worry that he is growing up in a world where being a male is automatically a terrible thing, and that’s so sad

Sad, but it's a golden opportunity to explain how not to be a terrible man, and have conversations about consent, respect, vulnerability, giving women space etc. (In an age appropriate way, of course)