My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

Oh wait, a thread about women sharing their experiences of sexism, cat calling, being groped, raped and fear of being murdered which quickly became post after post defending men at every turn

This. It's been a depressing read at times. Especially when posters have used the term hysterical to describe women who are angry about this very serious issue.
It just shows you what a misogynistic and patriarchal society we still live in.

@Hillary4

The one sided dismissive judgmental comments here show your husband was right. There's no doubt the recent murder was tragic, but it has to be rationalized against all interactions of everybody irrespective of gender. All attacks on anybody should be dealt with severely, but they're not. Fifteen years for a murder for example is outrageous, but our system has been ruined by successive politicians and this is what we have - ten years of Tory cuts too. Also the funding cuts for support groups. Our outrage on each incident is press driven whipping up hysteria. I can assure you that from my past in the sixties in east London boys were being beaten up and murdered but there isn't a "interest group" to make it front page. The full investigation of those incidents is hampered by accusations of racism too, contrary to the facts of the crimes. Still the case now, which is why young boys carry knives for protection, because the Police can't manage or deal with it on their numbers and the number of forms to fill in before proceeding to trial let alone conviction if the CPS decide to charge. EVERY life matters EVERY right to walk the streets without fear matters To restrict your disgust on anger on only a half of society displays an arrogance and prejudice. It's not the louder you shout or the number that shout that makes any argument right, it's the content after considered debate Campaign for enforcement of current laws, no more new ones are needed and accept that the society that has evolved in the UK presents dangers to both genders, and that fear prevents both walking the streets when and where they want to for fear of being attacked

And who were they beaten up and murdered by? Women?

Men are at risk of being attacked - by other men. If I had a son I would certainly worry about him being out alone at night. This is why we need to get to the root cause of male violence and address it. However, you seen determined to make it into a nebulous “people” issue, which does absolutely nothing to improve the problem.

Recognising male pattern violence is not the same as saying 'all men are violent'. It really doesn't take that much critical thinking to understand this, but some people just cannot allow discussions about male violence against women (and other men) without making it all about how these discussions make men look bad. As if that's the worst issue here.

@MakeMathsFun I completely, completely agree with you.

We would not be allowed to say that all Germans were Nazis, all Muslims are terrorists, all gay people are a b and c.

Yet we allow it against men, but when it comes to male experiences (ie the PP up thread who listed his awful experiences and was met with "but you weren't raped" or the way that examples of men being abused in awful ways is met with "but its not as bad as when its done to a woman and completely dismissed) with the narrative of "Men have had it their way long enough women have had enough".

That's all fine and good, but in no other example would someone else having it worse mean you haven't had it.

Am thinking that rooty you are deliberately derailing and pretending you don't understand numerous posters when they say "no-one has ever said all men".

@Pan2

Am thinking that rooty you are deliberately derailing and pretending you don't understand numerous posters when they say "no-one has ever said all men".

That's a bit of an odd comment to make, given that derailing means talkign about something else and my above comment directly relates to the issue at hand.

I also haven't pretend to not understand anyone, in fact on this thread I don't think I've even mentioned the "no-one has ever said all men"

what an odd comment. In the past, I have absolutely been clear in my views on this subject and took a pounding for that, all sorts of accusations, but I've stood my ground and owned it, On this occasion, with this thread, I've done nothing wrong!

Yep. And this is why we have a problem in our society - because roughly 50% of women don't ever think their husbnds/sons/friends could possibly be misogynistic. And yet upwards of 90% of women, if not all women, have experienced misogyny.

@horseyhorsey17

Yep. And this is why we have a problem in our society - because roughly 50% of women don't ever think their husbnds/sons/friends could possibly be misogynistic. And yet upwards of 90% of women, if not all women, have experienced misogyny.

Works both ways though (although I don't disagree).

There are hundreds of threads on here about toxic mothers, sisters, grandmas, MIL, etc etc etc.

Yet daily on these threads any suggestion that women can pose a threat to each other and to men are dismissed, laughed off, and "but did they rape you".

It really does work both ways. that's not whataboutery or derailing, it's pointing out that you can't make a claim that all men (or most men) are guilty of bad behaviour, because 90 percent of people have experienced it (which I absolutely believe, and I think it's probably more) while claiming as upthread that women behaving badly is RARE.

@user1493379562

Ok I am going to put the cat among the pigeons. Before I start yes I too have been sexually assaulted and nothing was done because he a wearing a hoodie and I couldn't see his face. I am probably a lot older than most on this thread. I grew up with all the warnings about keeping safe, to avoid dark places at night and despite of all that I got myself into some scrapes when I a teenager. However my assault happened was when I was in my 40's walking the dog and I couldn't have been more demurely dressed if I tried! Unfortunately these days I feel there are a lot of women with double standards (and no not all women, but again probably too many). Things like Tinder didn't exist when I was younger and the only porn available was on the top shelf of a newsagents. These days with a few choice words anyone can get onto Google images and see extremely pornographic images. You can't tell me all these women have been forced into creating theses images! More likely they have been paid handsomely for it. (Well if they can make money from it good for them). but how many of these men that attack women have spent time getting worked up watching this stuff? Getting sexually frustrated and thinking all women must be up for it? Surely it would be a good start to ban these things? Sorry ladies we can't have it both ways. Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than us and I think it would be sensible to take your daughters to learn marshal arts or other defense class The bigger they are the harder they fall.

😳😳😳 Y I think your post has confirmed how much work needs to be done, particularly when you seem oblivious to it

Women do pose a threat to each other but nothing like the same way that men pose a threat to us, purely because of our physical makeup. Put bluntly - I couldn't take even a fairly weak man in a fight but I'd take my chances with a woman.

Or look at sexual crimes. 19% of male prisoners are in for sexual crimes, most of which will be against women - actually surprisingly high considering how hard it is to get a rape conviction. Less than 3% of women are in prison for sexual crimes, many of them also involved a male.

Men as a class are waaaay more dangerous to women as a class than other women.

@TheJerkStore

Oh wait, a thread about women sharing their experiences of sexism, cat calling, being groped, raped and fear of being murdered which quickly became post after post defending men at every turn

This. It's been a depressing read at times. Especially when posters have used the term hysterical to describe women who are angry about this very serious issue.
It just shows you what a misogynistic and patriarchal society we still live in.

Very true unfortunately 😞

@horseyhorsey17

Women do pose a threat to each other but nothing like the same way that men pose a threat to us, purely because of our physical makeup. Put bluntly - I couldn't take even a fairly weak man in a fight but I'd take my chances with a woman.

Or look at sexual crimes. 19% of male prisoners are in for sexual crimes, most of which will be against women - actually surprisingly high considering how hard it is to get a rape conviction. Less than 3% of women are in prison for sexual crimes, many of them also involved a male.

Men as a class are waaaay more dangerous to women as a class than other women.

Physically.

Emotionally?

And I appreciate that the "derailing" comments will be out to bore the life out of me, but it's very easy to win an argument by going "men are stronger and can rape so there".

@PinkPanther27, I appreciate I'm banging this drum, but are we all ignoring the long post by a man which detailed horrendous behaviour women and the unchallenged post of "but did they rape you?" It works both ways.

I don't see what your point is.

I'm not responding to the comment about the man being atttacked as haven't seen it. However, I do think women posting about their experiences of misogyny and related trauma is actually boring to a lot of other women now, because it's so common and we've all experienced it. There's a 'hoik your bosom up and get on with it' attitude from some women - something I've seen a lot on here. (I am more of a lurker than a poster). This depresses me no end.

Men are always taken more seriously than women, even when it comes to domestic violence.

@horseyhorsey17

I don't see what your point is.

I'm not responding to the comment about the man being atttacked as haven't seen it. However, I do think women posting about their experiences of misogyny and related trauma is actually boring to a lot of other women now, because it's so common and we've all experienced it. There's a 'hoik your bosom up and get on with it' attitude from some women - something I've seen a lot on here. (I am more of a lurker than a poster). This depresses me no end.

Men are always taken more seriously than women, even when it comes to domestic violence.

Yeah, I get that. I really do.

But I absolutely, vehemently disagree on MN that men are taken more seriously than women, I'm sorry dons hard hat

OK, well when you can find me endless newspaper stories of men who've reported being stalked by their female partner to the police, and been ignored and ended up being murdered or killing themselves, then we'll talk.

but because he insists that he has no memory at all about what happened

Mittens I'll probably explain this very clumsily (and it's from what I've read), but people who suffer serious trauma (often leading to complex PTSD) may block the memory of the event, it's not that he insists he doesn't remember, it's likely he truly can't. It's believed to be a mechanism used by the brain to protect the victim. Probably a psychologist can come along and explain this better.

Sorry about your brother

Also, I'm curious - do you think it's just coincidence that less than 20% of MPs are female? (Less than 25% globally?) That less than 20% of women are company directors?

I honestly don't know how any woman can think men aren't taken more seriously. I'm highly educated and have a reasonably high flying career but I'm standing for public office in a local role and the amount of men who try and pat me on the head and treat me like I'm some sort of halfwit is astonishing. They don't treat the male candidates like that. I doubt I'll be elected tbh.

@horseyhorsey17

OK, well when you can find me endless newspaper stories of men who've reported being stalked by their female partner to the police, and been ignored and ended up being murdered or killing themselves, then we'll talk.

But we're back to the same point.

Just because the behaviour isn't physical, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Anything involving death is always more shocking (and I am absolutely not minimising the sheer horror of female violence, at all, in the slightest). But it doesn't mean there aren't 'other' issues in relation to the topic at hand.

But my last comment was directly related to the way in which the issue is talked about. Online, on social media, men cop for it, and it is simply not true to say they get off lighter.

Emotional abuse can't be measured in the same way. It's pointless having a hypothetical discussion about whether women are as emotionally abusive as men based on zero evidence. But happy to talk about if it you've got some data on it?

So, going back to the question, because men can be the victims as well as the perpetrator, no not all men are the same. QED.
Deal with the criminal and it will reduce, nowhere n the world is crime free.
SOME women think they can only be attacked, just like any pain a man feels isn't a patch on childbirth, wake up ladies and take a large sniff of the coffee
All victims matter

@horseyhorsey17

Emotional abuse can't be measured in the same way. It's pointless having a hypothetical discussion about whether women are as emotionally abusive as men based on zero evidence. But happy to talk about if it you've got some data on it?

It's a derail, and even I know it is.

But, the point we started interacting on - you said that 90 (more) percent of women have been harassed or sexually abused in some way. Your point was that how can that be true when people claim their husband or son isn't like that.

The same stands for women. According to MN, on the whole, women are never wrong, and can't possibly do as much damage as men. Yet then we read countless threads of absolutely horrendous behaviour by woman. So it does happen. And is evidenced, by women's voices. Yet we seem to ignore them, unless they're talking about men.

All victims matter

Has anyone said they don't? Did you shout all lives matter in response to BLM??
In a debate about male violence towards women it is unhelpful to make the conversation about male victims.

@twelly so you don't believe it--do you have better science that you can point to? Something that means American men in college are more likely than the average to be violent? Can you point to a major methodological challenge that makes the statistics likely to be inaccurate? I went over the study with a fine tooth comb when I first saw it, because as a woman in a male dominated field it is fucking terrifying to believe it, but I couldn't find anything that gave me a good, scientific reason to believe it was likely to be wrong in the cultural context I live in (Australia).

What I did find was this study which in a random sample of Canadian men found '73 per cent never reported using sexually coercive tactics'. Or this which in a series of studies in the US and Canada demonstrated that around 35% of men give an answer that isn't 'not at all likely' on a 5-point likert scale to a question about whether they would rape if they were guaranteed to get away with it, and 20% gave an answer of 3 or more (where 5 is 'extremely likely').

Given that these studies are all in North America, I just did a quick scan to see if I could find anything in Britain. I didn't find anything about rape specifically (given the 5 minutes I spent, this isn't surprising). What I did find was this survey of British wives, showing that 28% of them had been hit my their husbands (and that about 1/6 of them had been raped....making 1/6 of husbands rapists).

I guess that means your original assertion that 1/20 men is wrong is correct: the number is much greater, as I suspected. Yes, this is disturbing, but it is also cultural--studies I read showed that one of the key ways to fix this problem is to educate men (and boys) that women are people.

@TheJerkStore

All victims matter

Has anyone said they don't? Did you shout all lives matter in response to BLM??
In a debate about male violence towards women it is unhelpful to make the conversation about male victims.

The narrative is very much that they don't matter as much, Jerk.

I actually could see the point of the ALM cause too (although I stayed well out of that one).

I appreciate this makes me a lost cause!