My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

I were to say eg women were weaker then men, or something along those lines (I'm tired so not the best example) I'd be crucified as being sexist.

No you wouldn't because this is a big part of the problem. On the whole men are bigger and stronger than women which is why we feel physically threatened. It's why we are more likely to be killed - because they are stronger than us!!

@picknmix1984

Considering 98% of women say they have had some form of sexual harassment- it may not be ALL men but is sure an awful lot of men. Some of those men will now be spouting the same crap. At least you and your daughter are there to educate him!

I'd be a little careful about that 98% figure. The unwoman.org study used a very broad definition of "sexual harassment" which included "being stared at by a man". Consider this: If two people are in a bar and one likes the look of the other, they will probably keep looking. That applies to both sexes btw. I'm not denying that there is any problem here, only that we need to be careful of the definitions we use, because most guys probably wouldn't consider a woman who kept looking at them as being a form of sexual harassment and conversely probably wouldn't realise that it could be construed that way by a woman.

@year5teacher

I would really, really hate this OP. If my DP turned around and said “not ALL men...” 🤢 it’s the fact that that’s the response to the situation. Not like acknowledging that women actually do have very valid reasons to be frightened of men when they walk home alone (or in other situations), it’s immediately defending men and deflecting the problem. Gross

Not all Germans were Nazis. This statement does not defend the terrible attrocities. It does however reflect the fact that we must not stereotype, or else we become racist, sexist, etc. (depending on the "not all group") ourselves. "Not all men" is a valid truth that does not undermine the movement to make ALL WOMEN (and all men) people feel safe.

Interesting comment regarding nazis as when referring to the atrocities committed we say it was the actions of the nazis not the Germans. Maybe we should say it is the actions of violent men or rapist or sexist men or some other term rather than 'men"

@TheJerkStore

I were to say eg women were weaker then men, or something along those lines (I'm tired so not the best example) I'd be crucified as being sexist.

No you wouldn't because this is a big part of the problem. On the whole men are bigger and stronger than women which is why we feel physically threatened. It's why we are more likely to be killed - because they are stronger than us!!

Not all men are stronger than all women! More men are killed than women too. So the movement should be to make those (predominantly male aggressors) to be more aware of their actions to both the women and men who they threaten, instead of stirring fear into the hearts of all women to be scared of all men. All that this does is increase the number of people scared, which contradicts the movement's objective. It also unfairly 'attacks' the innocent men, many of whom are as vulnerable as the women. Like I said, more men are killed every year. It is not sexist to say so either. Its just an expression of non-opinionated facts.

Did the survey also investigate what percentage of men feel sexually harrassed? Or what percentage of men feel unsafe at night?

@MakeMathsFun yes, you put it a lot better than me, this is what I was trying to get across

Ok I am going to put the cat among the pigeons. Before I start yes I too have been sexually assaulted and nothing was done because he a wearing a hoodie and I couldn't see his face.
I am probably a lot older than most on this thread. I grew up with all the warnings about keeping safe, to avoid dark places at night and despite of all that I got myself into some scrapes when I a teenager. However my assault happened was when I was in my 40's walking the dog and I couldn't have been more demurely dressed if I tried! Unfortunately these days I feel there are a lot of women with double standards (and no not all women, but again probably too many). Things like Tinder didn't exist when I was younger and the only porn available was on the top shelf of a newsagents. These days with a few choice words anyone can get onto Google images and see extremely pornographic images. You can't tell me all these women have been forced into creating theses images! More likely they have been paid handsomely for it. (Well if they can make money from it good for them). but how many of these men that attack women have spent time getting worked up watching this stuff? Getting sexually frustrated and thinking all women must be up for it? Surely it would be a good start to ban these things? Sorry ladies we can't have it both ways. Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than us and I think it would be sensible to take your daughters to learn marshal arts or other defense class The bigger they are the harder they fall.

Not all men are stronger than all women! More men are killed than women too. So the movement should be to make those (predominantly male aggressors) to be more aware of their actions to both the women and men who they threaten, instead of stirring fear into the hearts of all women to be scared of all men. All that this does is increase the number of people scared, which contradicts the movement's objective. It also unfairly 'attacks' the innocent men, many of whom are as vulnerable as the women. Like I said, more men are killed every year. It is not sexist to say so either. Its just an expression of non-opinionated facts.

I didn't say all men are stronger - I said men generally tend to be stronger.....a fact.

Male violence towards men is a completely different beast to male violence towards women.
At no point has anyone said male on male violence isn't an issue but we shouldn't lump the two together as this stops us addressing the root cause of these very separate issues.

@user1493379562

Ok I am going to put the cat among the pigeons. Before I start yes I too have been sexually assaulted and nothing was done because he a wearing a hoodie and I couldn't see his face. I am probably a lot older than most on this thread. I grew up with all the warnings about keeping safe, to avoid dark places at night and despite of all that I got myself into some scrapes when I a teenager. However my assault happened was when I was in my 40's walking the dog and I couldn't have been more demurely dressed if I tried! Unfortunately these days I feel there are a lot of women with double standards (and no not all women, but again probably too many). Things like Tinder didn't exist when I was younger and the only porn available was on the top shelf of a newsagents. These days with a few choice words anyone can get onto Google images and see extremely pornographic images. You can't tell me all these women have been forced into creating theses images! More likely they have been paid handsomely for it. (Well if they can make money from it good for them). but how many of these men that attack women have spent time getting worked up watching this stuff? Getting sexually frustrated and thinking all women must be up for it? Surely it would be a good start to ban these things? Sorry ladies we can't have it both ways. Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than us and I think it would be sensible to take your daughters to learn marshal arts or other defense class The bigger they are the harder they fall.

The fact you think that violent pornography leading to an escalation in violence against women is "ladies having it both ways" is absolutely disgusting. It's men having it every way in that example!! No woman is winning in that scenario.

I can't believe a woman would write with such barely concealed vitriol about other women.

Internalised misogyny.

I was 18 when I was raped by a stranger. I was raped because of men raping women. Not because of women "having it both ways."

@user1493379562

However my assault happened was when I was in my 40's walking the dog and I couldn't have been more demurely dressed if I tried!

And I'm so sorry this happened to you, it sounds terrifying.

The fact you even mentioned what you were wearing shows how deeply the internal misogyny is engrained in some women.

@Libraryghost
@PinkPanther27

Thank you for your kind words about my DB. It’s very tragic, he’s in his 50s and his life has been completely destroyed, he hasn’t had a job at any time since his early 20s. My DSis and I believe he suffers from complex PTSD (we’ve both been diagnosed with that), but because he insists that he has no memory at all about what happened, he was previously diagnosed with schizophrenia, but now he’s been diagnosed as autistic instead.

The difficulty for us is that he idealises them memory of our abusive F, so we can’t cope with being around him. He used to be aggressive towards our DC, so we’ve had to distance ourselves anyway.

@user1493379562

Ok I am going to put the cat among the pigeons. Before I start yes I too have been sexually assaulted and nothing was done because he a wearing a hoodie and I couldn't see his face. I am probably a lot older than most on this thread. I grew up with all the warnings about keeping safe, to avoid dark places at night and despite of all that I got myself into some scrapes when I a teenager. However my assault happened was when I was in my 40's walking the dog and I couldn't have been more demurely dressed if I tried! Unfortunately these days I feel there are a lot of women with double standards (and no not all women, but again probably too many). Things like Tinder didn't exist when I was younger and the only porn available was on the top shelf of a newsagents. These days with a few choice words anyone can get onto Google images and see extremely pornographic images. You can't tell me all these women have been forced into creating theses images! More likely they have been paid handsomely for it. (Well if they can make money from it good for them). but how many of these men that attack women have spent time getting worked up watching this stuff? Getting sexually frustrated and thinking all women must be up for it? Surely it would be a good start to ban these things? Sorry ladies we can't have it both ways. Men are generally physically bigger and stronger than us and I think it would be sensible to take your daughters to learn marshal arts or other defense class The bigger they are the harder they fall.

There is so much internalised misogyny here I don't even know where to start.

I'm sorry you were sexually assaulted but the fact you had to mention what you were wearing speaks volumes. I wouldn't matter if you were naked you still do not deserve to be sexually assaulted.

As for women with double standards-bloody hell. What a horrible thing to say.

Great conversation going on here.
Just wanted to add that those trying to make the distinction of "only violent men commit these acts" are missing the casual violence which a lot of normal 'Joes'. are capable or guilty of.
The men groping or catcalling don't all become rapists or murderers but not checking how your actions provoke fear in the recipient tells me about your internalised male privilege. That a Mayor (Cuomo) or any could allegedly have told a woman who is not your girlfriend or romantic interest 'you are so beautiful, I want to kiss you' and not think how worrisome that is for her if she encounters him in a secluded space, shows how out of touch most men are with a woman's reality.
This conversation reminded me of a lot of the sexual harassment I have received over the years. These men have gone on to become hopefully good husbands and fathers, some are even friends on Facebook but when I see them, the first image that flashes is of how you spent 30mins trying to hold me down so you can kiss me even though I said I wasn't interested. Reminders of casual gropes. Casual violence which he probably has no recollection of but for me caused a lifelong change in behaviour - I stopped visiting male friends alone throughout Uni unless its a boyfriend.
That is why this conversation is needed. If the use of 'all men' is evoking a defensive reaction in you, go check yourself Joe.
Men say they are afraid of other men too due to risk of violent crime. Women fear the same men in addition to sexual violence. Same thug will steal a phone from a man and punch him if he resists. but if circumstances are right same thug will steal same phone from a woman, punch and rape her just for fun.
Not the same fear.

@Lastchancesalonco

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me” Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

I see your point. However, he was not not being a 'man baby'. He is a front-end key worker experienced, trained, regularly informed and face-to-face on a daily basis with crime and the statistics of crime. So, he (as would any female Police Officer) would likely be more qualified than most lay-people in this area. He may not have expressed himself very well, but certainly a curfew for all men (or all women) would be an extra abuse of human rights. The aggressive (primarily) male culprits would just find a different time to find victims too. As for your daughter's curfew, I know many parents who give their teenage sons curfews, so it is not necessarily relevant. "Not all men" is not an "extremist comment". Its a valid fact that was trying to deescalate a very polarised notion that stereotypes all men unfairly. True that most crimes are committed by men, but lets not punish all men for it. Lets try to make the World a safer place for all. And lets help get the message through to all those aggressive men (and to the unspoken minority of aggressive women) . Lets also take it to schools and ensure that children are better informed of it all before they grow up and become adolescent and adult perpetrators themselves. Also, note that many secondary schools were already doing this via lessons in Citizenship, Welfare, Relationships & Sex Education and other formalised delivery. The problem is that it is not standardised across all schools. This must be improved in a structured, informed manner. There is an certain irony that the survey that found the 98% of women feeling unsafe, categorised being 'looked at' as a threat. Given that many women (not all women) can be frequently seen to be dressed up to be looked at (cosmetics, tight clothing, etc.) whereas most men (not all men) just throw on jeans and T-shirt. Its not surprising that women get looked at. Women look at men too, but they are generally better at not getting caught. Women look at women too. Women's media is filled with adverts and critique about body image. Peer pressure is intense for many women. Also, the 98% survey was probably not completed by those other women who do feel safe, nor indeed completed by those not drawn to the website. To get the real data, it needs to be included in the Census for all to complete. Yes, I feel for all women (and men) who feel unsafe. And yes, we need to address it. However, branding "all men" as perpetrators by denying them the right to say "not all men", just undermines the movement for sexual equality. We must stand together, women and men equally, to combat violence, threat and oppression. Curfews only time-shift it and add further oppression. Your husband did not need to see the "error of his ways". He just needed more enlightenment. "not all men" is a fair comment that does not undermine any of it. The rest is all anger (possibly by all three of you).

[quote Frazzledmum123]@MakeMathsFun yes, you put it a lot better than me, this is what I was trying to get across[/quote]
@Frazzledmum123
Thank you for your kind response.
It is clearly a very important nest of issues that needs addressing on all sides. Men are more aware of it now, which is better. However, like you said, all men should not feel like they are the enemy.
Some writers to this post have also expressed the fact that some non-violent men (regular Joes) have made them feel unsafe due to their sexual advances. I think these writers have fair comment too (very important to this issue). But still, "not all men" continues to apply to this even bigger sector of the male population. Equally, "not all women" sexually approach men with a grope, but many still do. I think we need clearer legal definitions of "consent". Anyway how do you ask a person for consent in the first place? Tricky for all genders, as it can make anyone feel uncomfortable, even verbally.

@MakeMathsFun

It is indeed terrible that any group in society feels threatened by another, not least women fearful of men. However, this shout out itself has at times been overwhelmingly threatening to all men, when indeed not all men are aggressors. Just because a person is a man, does not mean that they are a member of the stereotype. As such there are some (but not all) women (and non-women women supporters) whose aggression towards men could be interpreted as sexist too. Here are the names of several women whose henous crimes are as memorable as those of Jack the Ripper: Aileen Wuornos, Judias Buenoano, Myra Hindley, Juana Barraza and Jane Toppan for a start. All serial murderers. Yes its clear that there are many women who unfortunately feel unsafe from men, but equally there are many men who are terrified of women. However, they are unlikely to report it. How terrified are all those young women who go out on a Saturday night wearing a thong with a micro-skirt with a breast-exposing top? Are those miillons scared to go out? Their costume might seem to imply the opposite. If a man wears a kilt on a night out, it is almost certain that the kilt will be lifted by at least one or two 'ladies' that night. I have seen it happen. Of course that does not justify unwanted behaviour. I just point out here that its not all one-sided. I know a man who has been sexually molested no less than 12 times by different women as he walked down the street wearing normal jeans in broad daylight. Did he report these bizarre incidents? No. And its not so bizarre. It happens more than people realise. Don't get me wrong. Violence towards women is horrible, but so is violence towards men, whether it be from another man or not. Most men are not alpha male. Most men are as frightened of the aggressive men as women are. Men have to pretend to be tough so as not to be attacked too. Its not a men vs women issue. Its about non-consensual behaviours, violence, aggressive attitudes and verbal bullying. These sadly are in every society. Sometimes its a gender thing, sometimes its a race thing, and sometimes its just pure ignorance. So bring on the Awareness Campaign to all perpetrators. Education is key. But please don't make it polarised against men. Or else, the action itself becomes an antisocial, sexist emotional abuse towards many men who don't deserve it. Many men support non-violence towards women, so don't make them feel hated too. Some men are even feminists, so lets try to include them in this campaign rather than turn them into a fiery enemy.

Where to start?

I'll just leave this here: of the people in prison convicted of sexual offences, 98% ( I think the actual number is closer to 99%) are men.

I know you don't want to hear that, but this is very much a one way thing.

As soon as you said he is a police officer I thought he’s probably tired of all the stonewall hatred of women being forced upon him daily. Then when he has heard you and your daughter he is probably defensive. My husband hears the lies from stonewall and sees they are harming children so when he is home with me and listens to the meetings I am on with other women trying to save our children from the stonewall nonsense in schools, he feels relieved. Listening to other women reinforces that women and men who are allies are speaking out and trying to stop what stonewall are doing to children’s minds. Hopefully Allison Bailey who is suing stonewall will bring about change cos at present all the big organisations like the police and NHS have been captured by stonewall.

@LadyMonicaBaddingham
He said "not all men". He did not say "not all women".
Your statement "not all animals are endangered" refers to the threatened group, not the aggressors. Therefore it is not fully relevant.
"Not all Germans were nazis" is a truth that is important to prevent stereotyping of a nation.
It is indeed horrible that there are so many men out there who have 'indulged' unrightly. Yes it needs to be addressed, but lets not tarnish "all men" for all the terrible abuses that many women (and men) have faced.

[quote MakeMathsFun]@LadyMonicaBaddingham
He said "not all men". He did not say "not all women".
Your statement "not all animals are endangered" refers to the threatened group, not the aggressors. Therefore it is not fully relevant.
"Not all Germans were nazis" is a truth that is important to prevent stereotyping of a nation.
It is indeed horrible that there are so many men out there who have 'indulged' unrightly. Yes it needs to be addressed, but lets not tarnish "all men" for all the terrible abuses that many women (and men) have faced.[/quote]
But nobody has said it's all men ....... we aren't saying that.

"Not all men" is a valid truth that does not undermine the movement to make ALL WOMEN (and all men) people feel safe.

Literally no one is saying that every single man is a rapist. What is wrong is that being a man’s immediate response to the women in his life saying that men make them feel unsafe. Can you not see how selfish and unfeeling that is?

Also, if you can’t understand how men constantly bloody derailing the conversation with “not all men” DOES undermine the movement to keep women safe then I’m not sure what to say to you.

I am lucky enough to have wonderful men in my life who make me feel safe, and somehow none of them have ever felt the need to insert themselves in the conversation by banging on about “not all men”.

I wish people would stop accusing other posters of saying it’s ‘all men’. Please copy and paste a comment where that’s been said. The point that’s being made is that there are obviously more than just a tiny minority that make women feel unsafe.

Or is it just about the suggestion of a curfew of all men, which was never a serious proposal?

The one sided dismissive judgmental comments here show your husband was right.
There's no doubt the recent murder was tragic, but it has to be rationalized against all interactions of everybody irrespective of gender.
All attacks on anybody should be dealt with severely, but they're not. Fifteen years for a murder for example is outrageous, but our system has been ruined by successive politicians and this is what we have - ten years of Tory cuts too.
Also the funding cuts for support groups.
Our outrage on each incident is press driven whipping up hysteria.
I can assure you that from my past in the sixties in east London boys were being beaten up and murdered but there isn't a "interest group" to make it front page.
The full investigation of those incidents is hampered by accusations of racism too, contrary to the facts of the crimes.
Still the case now, which is why young boys carry knives for protection, because the Police can't manage or deal with it on their numbers and the number of forms to fill in before proceeding to trial let alone conviction if the CPS decide to charge.
EVERY life matters
EVERY right to walk the streets without fear matters
To restrict your disgust on anger on only a half of society displays an arrogance and prejudice.
It's not the louder you shout or the number that shout that makes any argument right, it's the content after considered debate
Campaign for enforcement of current laws, no more new ones are needed and accept that the society that has evolved in the UK presents dangers to both genders, and that fear prevents both walking the streets when and where they want to for fear of being attacked

No one has said it is all men, no one is saying that men are not harassed, abused or experience violence, no one is saying that only men are the perpetrators. Oh wait, a thread about women sharing their experiences of sexism, cat calling, being groped, raped and fear of being murdered which quickly became post after post defending men at every turn. My DH is called out by ME for some of his actions when he thinks it's OK to pat me on the bum in public or 'it's just a bit of fun comments' especially in front of my DSs. The fact is I shouldn't have to but its there in my own home. That is reality and it has to change. I don't expect I am alone.

Not all men are stronger than all women

jfc