My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

Jon - that's a bit of a concern of mine, as a man, generally. We appear to have a very low self-esteem level IF not assaulting or in some way being derogatory toward women is the best you can achieve given the relative societal power we have. We appear to expect very little of ourselves.

@changi

Too many women - 94-98% have been found to have suffered assault, abuse, rape, murder or harassment at the hands of men.

Has anybody given any sources for those percentages?

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

Why is it necessary to bundle all men together? And deny them the right to just point out that it is wrong to do so? Why can't we have a fair conversation if we want a fair society?

Noone’s bundling all men together. They are saying that terrible events like the murders Sarah Everard and Libby Squire and the many women who’ve been killed by male violence don’t happen in a total vacuum. There is a social context.

An analogy is a pot on a stovetop. If you leave it there on a high heat, it occasionally boils over. In order to stop the pot boiling over, you need to turn it down. Or turn it off. You can’t clean up the mess from it boiling over then leave it there on the same heat and expect it not to boil over anymore.

The abduction and murder of women walking home is what happens when the pot of misogyny and male entitlement in our society boils over. When a man can no longer control his misogyny and decides that he’s going to end a woman’s life for no other reason than the fact she’s female. We can’t just leave the pot there on a same heat and expect it not to happen again.

The problem with phrases such as
"All Lives Matter"
"Not All Men Are Like That"
"Women commit crimes too"
etc etc etc

is NOT that they are not true. They are. It is that they automatically set up a deliberate strawman arguement - which is then much easier to defend against, than the original arguement/point that people were making - that black people shouldnt be shot for no reason, that women shouldnt have to fear being raped, murdered or just groped/harrassed on a daily basis. And if someone feels defensive against those original arguements (or wants to change the conversation by invoking NAMALT, ALM etc) you have to ask why they are so invested in doing so.

@changi

Too many women - 94-98% have been found to have suffered assault, abuse, rape, murder or harassment at the hands of men.

Has anybody given any sources for those percentages?

Not sure my previous link worked. It's very widely available if googled, on every news outlet over the last few weeks.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

Although my DH hasn’t said “it’s not all men”, he has said that the men perpetuating these awful crimes are likely to be psychopaths and that you’re unlikely to encounter many of them in your lifetime. I told him if he had a bag of chocolate raisins but a few were actually dog shit covered in chocolate, would he risk eating them?
The point is it’s not just psychopaths. It’s regular misogynistic assholes, catcalling, groping, beating and groping and raping women.
My teenage daughters asked me how many times I had been subjected to sexual abuse and the honest answer is I don’t know because it’s in the hundreds! The narrative needs to change in that the men need to call out other men for their comments or behaviors.
I’m glad your DD gave your DH a run down OP. Hopefully he now has a clearer understanding.

@lilstarr99

I had a similar comment from my 17 yr old son. He’s got two sisters and always appears to be respectful to women. However, he’s young so I told him how it was for me growing up. How when commuting to London every day I would have to put up with being touched up, yelled at, ogled at, cat called etc most days. I was sexually assaulted at work, as well as being treated and spoken to like shit just for being a woman. Had my ideas belittled and then stolen by men and that’s just at work. I’ve been stalked by two different men, at different points in my life and don’t get me started on controlling behaviour in relationships. I didn’t go into microscopic detail, but I reeled off lots off this and he just sat there. I finished saying that my life isn’t unusual. Most, if not all of my friends have had similar happen to them.

He was shocked and very upset. He apologised and later on came back down and said he’s been thinking about what I’d said and about how he is with girls at school etc. That he’s going to really think about how his words and actions may be perceived, even if it wasn’t meant in the way it was taken.

I really believe that we as mothers, sisters etc should be honest with the men in our lives. Men have privilege whether they realise it or not and they need to start seeing how it is for women and girls.

It sounds like he's a lovely young man. I hope my DD has this type around her

When a man can no longer control his misogyny and decides that he’s going to end a woman’s life for no other reason than the fact she’s female.

When a man feels entitled to act upon his misogyny. . .

I had a small discussion wiyh my husband and just was saying that it is true we know it's not all men, I also pointed out that if i am out and it's dark I don't care if its man, woman or dog I want to know where they are and if they look like they are getting closer, watch their behaviours if I can because women can be just as nasty. Also watch for groups of people. Anyway I said unfortunately there is no sign flashing above them to tell us it's this one you need to watch. I also commented that I had seen men asking what they can do, as they already cross the road if there is a single woman. And in relation to these comments I just said that it was nice and a good thing to do. Well this set my husband off asking why men should have to cross the road and that he will never cross the road as he knows he won't be harming anyone. And I just said I didnt say men had to cross the road I said its nice if some men actually think like that and do go out of their way to make women feel safer. But it has left me a bit sick as well as he clearly does not know the feeling of deciding something based on your safety. So i have pointed out to him any chance I could. The first example was at a kids play park at 10am one sunday morning was a man playing (on the park items eg seesaw etc) by himself. No other kids there. So I decided for the safety of me and my son to just keep walking and go for a walk around the neighbourhood. But he still doesn't seem to get it 😔

What a load of nonsense. Men are far more likely to be victims of attack on the streets than women. The world is a very dangerous place for men. Here in London about 15 boys/men are stabbed on a daily basis. This fact surely must tell you that by definition it's not all men. Some men are very violent and some are the victims of male violence. This ridiculous oversimplification must end. By your logic all Asian men should be suspected of being sexual predators of young white girls because of what happened in Rotherham - but I bet you would never say such a thing.

Once you start blaming the majority for the digressions of the minority you're in big trouble. Yes on the whole men are more aggressive and we have laws which punish aggression. I have a DS who has had mental health issues and is white. Society now looks at him like a privileged potential rapist. He's scared, legitimately of what he calls "road men" who mug and carry knives. But no one cares if men are scared and no one cares about the rates of male suicide. If you look at the figures, men aren't having such a great time at all. Just because people are extrapolating from the freakily privileged we now have "white male privilege". Has anyone looked at the other end of the scale at the men who are disproportionately represented doing unpleasant and downright dangerous jobs....Rat catchers, oil rig workers, scaffolders? Or how men are treated when they can't or don't want to become alpha males.

What a horrible vile world we live in when 50% of the population are denigrated as a whole. Black, White, Asian...how is maligning all men not even worse that picking individual segments like a racist would. How on earth has this become an acceptable way to behave?

There are violent men. There are violent women. There are kind, gentle men. There are kind, gentle women. Why are we creating prejudice against those who are everything we would hope for? Why teach your children that only male teachers sexually abuse pupils? (Cases involving women teachers currently in the headlines). Do we truly believe in gender equality if we turn and blame anyone with a penis for women being attacked? It is wrong to sexually assault someone and it should never be blamed on women asking for it or being dressed a certain way...that's where consent comes in.

Whilst we teach sons to behave correctly, let's also teach our daughters to stand tall...confidence to walk down a street etc. I also wonder whether our mindset is also at fault - why the addiction to 50 shades of grey? What is that teaching sons and daughters about love, respect and consent?

Not sure my previous link worked. It's very widely available if googled, on every news outlet over the last few weeks.

Thanks. Where does 94-98% figure come from though?

Drivel.

Well this set my husband off asking why men should have to cross the road and that he will never cross the road as he knows he won't be harming anyone.

What a wanker that he is angered by the idea of modifying his behaviour even in such a minor way that causes him absolutely no inconvenience other than a couple of steps. Even if the pay off is a woman feeling safe.

A woman feeling safe isn't worth the effort of him stepping onto the other side of the road. Wow.

I don't understand how men like him can justify this behaviour other than admitting it is just utter entitlement and misogyny. They aren't even eye rolling at the idea of modifying their behaviour now, they're angry.

If any of the women are having these discussions with their boys and men in their lives, it may be useful to nudge them over to a dadsnet thread at some stage. For ANY thread in the sleepy hollow that is dadsnet, it's garnered a reasonable response from the MN chaps at least.
Sorry, forgot how to do the linky thing.

I did toddle over to the thread in dadsnet, and it was pretty damned heartening. Very thought provoking. (I didn't want to stick my female beak in though!)

Stick your beak in please.

I think reasoned debate is almost impossible on any of the important issues of these difficult times, unless we learn to listen to the opinions of others, even if we may not agree with them. It’s the same in the debate about racism. Someone voices an opinion that someone else disagrees with and is immediately branded a racist. It’s counter productive because rather than encouraging debate, it shuts down the whole conversation. Judging by some of the scary posts in this thread, the same could be said.

@Memeapple,

I was going to say similar.

If you make the ‘M’ stand for Muslims instead of men when talking about terrorism or grooming, it suddenly becomes far less acceptable.

Othering an entire group for the bad behaviour of some will never lead to better understanding, only for more polarisation.

It is interesting that it is far harder to do when talking about specific people. Strange how ‘potential rapist’ turns into ‘lovely young man’ because you read on the Internet that a 17 year old has said the right words to his mother. He could just as easily be a rapist as any other person you don’t know.

Give someone a ‘face’ and they suddenly become harder to hate or fear.

@Pan2

Stick your beak in please.

will do.

I think you are being harsh. He probably is under intense scrutiny at work, comes home to relax and bam his mouth engages before his brain (in his loving environment).... I think his quick change of heart after been given a breather to think shows he's probably decent.

@Diemme

It's a perfectly valid point. I say not all men as well. We thankfully live in a time where generalisations and stereotyping is unacceptable.

^ this. Because he’s right, it’s not all men.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Well this set my husband off asking why men should have to cross the road and that he will never cross the road as he knows he won't be harming anyone.

What a wanker that he is angered by the idea of modifying his behaviour even in such a minor way that causes him absolutely no inconvenience other than a couple of steps. Even if the pay off is a woman feeling safe.

A woman feeling safe isn't worth the effort of him stepping onto the other side of the road. Wow.

I don't understand how men like him can justify this behaviour other than admitting it is just utter entitlement and misogyny. They aren't even eye rolling at the idea of modifying their behaviour now, they're angry.

Yes, anger as a response when asking to respect women is very strange. If he's uncomfortable with it maybe he should ask himself why?

Your daughter sounds awesome and just what your husband needs to wake him up. Sure a 6pm curfew for all men would be OTT, but then no one is ACTUALLY SERIOUSLY PROPOSING IT. It sounds like he spends all day in a police station where there were already some very defensive attitudes, even before one of them murdered a woman and then loads more of them got pilloried for manhandling the women who went out to mourn her. Maybe if he feels attacked he should think about why that is.

You are brilliant for challenging it. Rock on.