My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

Mine says that too

As a woman and the mot of a teenage boy I do feel that all men are being tarred with the same brush I have been in an abusive relationship and now in one that is totally the opposite. A 6pm curfew would rui my relationship I wouldn't be able to go out for a meal, go to the cinema with my partner. What about the men who work nights or shifts. A 6pm curfew is a bad idea

Finding it hard to imagine that there are many men steeped in police culture who can manage to continue to be good eggs, tbh. The police are not on our side

More badmouthing and reckless, dangerous generalisations. Bingo!

No-one is expecting anyone to have all the answers. Only a willingness to recognise that things are bad and to contribute to trying to make them better. For everyone.

Exactly.

Appropriate responses don’t include saying they’d be putting men in a and e after an attitude adjustment or that men hate rapists and thugs more than women do.

Male violence and misogyny needs to become socially unacceptable which means men calling it out when it happens, as well as not doing it themselves.

Ok, let's suppose a good man says 'notallmen' AND models good behaviour on his children/mates/wider society and explicitly points it out when he sees others acting inappropriately.

Would you be satisfied? Or would you expect something else (e.g. them keeping their head down and apologising for acts committed by others)?

How would it work?

A good man does not need to say “not all men”. It is obvious.

One of the reasons that I think this particular conversation is a stumbling block for many is because from my generation (40s) of "right on" people the focus was very much based on the removal of stereotypes. So this feels counterintuitive to many people who see themselves as being progressive

Chanjer this makes sense. So what's happened? Why are we now in this situation?

A good man does not need to say “not all men”. It is obvious

So some would not be satisfied with modelling appropriate behaviour and calling others out?

You would still want to police their opinions?

You would still want to police their opinions?

There is an appropriate time to share that opinion and it’s not when women are talking about the bad experiences they’ve had with men in society. It shuts down the conversation and is really dismissive.

Any solutions that might have some impact are going to involve men, like it or not.

So whilst the outrage of the current situation is valid, what is actually going to change the situation? If you think a continual battle against men, who maybe don't really understand, but are basically on your side and want to change the situation, is a good use of your energy then fire away. And we can revisit in 10 years when nothing has changed.

Some - does not equal all.
Too many - does not equal all.

I have not heard a single person say 'all men are woman bashing, raping, misogynistic, chauvinistic, entitled thugs.'

I have heard them say 'some men are'. I have heard them say 'too many men are'.

If your sons and husbands are feeling aggrieved that they're being 'tarred with the same brush', then I'd be pointing out the subtle numerical nuances of the above, and suggesting to them that they get very mad with the too many men who are abusing, hurting, harassing and assaulting women, which is who I'm beyond angry at, at this point, because they are the ones that have created this toxic environment. I'd also be pointing out to them, that hurt feelings don't equate to broken bones, the inutterable trauma of sexual assault and rape, and stolen lives.

@ClareBlue, can you give me examples that show that men are basically on the side of women?

@tangerinelollipop

Ok, let's suppose a good man says 'notallmen' AND models good behaviour on his children/mates/wider society and explicitly points it out when he sees others acting inappropriately.

Would you be satisfied? Or would you expect something else (e.g. them keeping their head down and apologising for acts committed by others)?

How would it work?

Apart from keeping his mouth shut about 'notallmen'. It wouldn't matter, his partner would know he was ok but he's still 'that man' to most. His children (male)/mates etc would also be 'that man' .'That man' the potential rapist, the violent thug, the sexist pig. You just need to accept that women see you and your son or friends as 'that man' and always will.

Drink driving used to be acceptable but was outlawed in the early 60s but still goes on. Driving using a mobile since early 2000s yet it still goes on. It'll take a long time for sexist attitudes to change so you just need to get used to being 'that man' for a long time.

@tangerinelollipop

A good man does not need to say “not all men”. It is obvious

So some would not be satisfied with modelling appropriate behaviour and calling others out?

You would still want to police their opinions?

I think it the opposite.

Those men would call out bad behaviour AND not feel under personal attack when women are talking about their issues with men as a class.

Chanjer this makes sense. So what's happened? Why are we now in this situation?

Because those stereotypes we rejected were ridiculous. Black people are criminals, gay people are mincers, women are crap drivers. All of which were statistically and provably untrue and also required ignoring the prevalence of any such negative aspects in other demographics including your own. I don't feel negatively depicted in threads like these because I see MEN as being shorthand rather than a stereotype. It is demonstrably true that men are the far more likely to commit violent acts against others regardless of sex and in this particular conversation it saves a load of mealy mouthed exemptions and qualifications.

If people, men and a surprising number of women, could distance themselves from this criticism and just see the conversation for what it is then I don't think they'd find it so difficult

I didn't mean difficult I meant they wouldn't feel so affronted

It is difficult to hear I think

Because those stereotypes we rejected were ridiculous

I see what you are saying, but also those groups have fought very hard to avoid stereotyping and I myself would find it very difficult to blame any man for trying to do the same.

Also, I don't think it has to do with men's egos, or being afraid of facing their past or repressed misogyny (as was suggested upthread). I imagine it has more to do with calling out unfairness.

@tangerinelollipop

Because those stereotypes we rejected were ridiculous

I see what you are saying, but also those groups have fought very hard to avoid stereotyping and I myself would find it very difficult to blame any man for trying to do the same.

Also, I don't think it has to do with men's egos, or being afraid of facing their past or repressed misogyny (as was suggested upthread). I imagine it has more to do with calling out unfairness.

Stereotypes in general are ridiculous.

I think one of the issues they may have is the hopelessness of it. If they as individuals feel they are still lumped in with everyone else then why should they bother.

His children (male)/mates etc would also be 'that man' .'That man' the potential rapist, the violent thug, the sexist pig. You just need to accept that women see you and your son or friends as 'that man' and always will

No, this is disturbing.

I wouldn't like society to view my DH, children, father, and male family members through this lens. It's plain wrong. The message is wrong, we must find another way to advocate for women, not like this.

I honestly don't think most men have any idea what life is like for women.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

I honestly don't think most men have any idea what life is like for women.

And what's most terrifying is that so many seem to take the often painful to share experiences of women as an insult to men.

You can hope that people view you a certain way but as someone who gets viewed with distrust by pretty much everyone all you can really do is not live up to their expectations, and convince people that way. You don't have any control over people's immediate perception of you

@tangerinelollipop
Well the reality is that my dad is sexist and misogynist.
My DH is sexist too
My two old teenagers (both sons) are still in the mist of me, me, me and will happily tell me tt the system is sexist towards them too and didnt I know that . But refusing to see that girls around them have it much ‘worse’ (aka they are not getting sexually assaulted or harassed just being who they are)

Is it disturbing? Yes it is.
But we have to actually acknowledge that sexism is deeply entrenched in society and everyone, I really everyone, is affected by it. And that makes all men somehow sexist albeit at different levels).
Just like I would say that all white peope racist, albeit again at different level.

[quote ParadiseIsland]@ClareBlue, can you give me examples that show that men are basically on the side of women?[/quote]
Well what do you consider society would be like if there weren't. What would it be like if all men really didn't give a shit about the situation. Those saying the police don't support women should maybe look at societies where the police really really don't support women. Nobody is saying there should be any acceptance of violence to women or that we don't have really issues in Western societies, but you we are not going to change it without involving men.

Being right, showing something is wrong, won't effect change, if it did then we wouldn't be here now.

We have had two female Prime Ministers, female Home Secretaries in charge of law enforcement, female Chief Constables in charge of police operational priorities, female Chief Justices and Senior Judiciary in charge of the punishment, female Council Leaders in charge of designing the urban environment we live in why didn't they effect the changes? Because even the most powerful people can only change things to an extent. Real cultural change comes through partnership and working together but this often involves a spectrum of experiences and backgrounds.

The issue is that if you want to really effect change you need to build alliances and target where you can push change. Part of that process is not attacking potential allies, even if they don't quite get it, not wasting energy on demonising clumsy language or confused thinking or how people should exactly think.
Of course the anger validates these responses but women were angry about this 10 years ago, 20 years ago and nothing changed. You can say it is all down to male privaledge, and maybe it is and maybe the history warrents the anger.
But if you want to change it you are going to have to involve them in the solution.
Post on this thread are of course correct about the trauma caused to women by men but what next another 20 years of the same again.

You don't have any control over people's immediate perception of you

No, but the constant, widespread and very vocal anti-male propaganda will take it's toll and will affect perceptions (and we don't even know the full ramifications or where all of this will lead). The approach needs to be more rational, I see it spiralling out of control TBH