My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

Christ are people still taking the curfew thing seriously?!

@BigFatLiar

Worried now...

OH is back from the shops and brought me a pack of maltesers, are they safe to eat.

@ekidmxcl

I think people totally missed the point about many younger teens/men feeling shitty about simply being male. People replied saying that women/girls safety is more important than men’s feelings. Yes - but that really isn’t the point I was making. The point was how do you engage people who you have tarred simply because they are men - that’s the point I was making - not moaning because of hurt feelings! If you are demonised simply for being male, it’s easier to just stay away from the issue - guaranteed not to be bollocked for being male/saying the wrong thing. And that isn’t how we’re going to solve this. We are not warring factions. It isn’t men v women. How awful.

It’s a good point.

My question to them would be
What are YOU doing about the situation? About the fact so many men are violent and it seems society as a whole (and that incl them) accept it as part of life?
What are you doing to support your gf, partner, female friends, the ones you go out with, go to clubs, party, go to school with?

It’s all well and good to feel shitty about it and say ‘Not all men’ and feel hurt. But when those same young men (and I include my two older teens in there) have no idea that more or less all the girls in their class have been sexually harassed/assaulted already, I’m wondering what they expect to happen tbh...

A reasonable answer is to say that we need to inform people. Which earns WOMEN need to explain to men what their life is. And then we need to do it in a way that hits the spot and makes them react. Whilst not hurting their feeling because ‘not all men’ and ‘they feel alienated’.

The reality is that women are frustrated and hurt. And like anyone who is hurt, they are screaming their pain because they’ve said it many times and have never been listened to (you're overreacting) ....

I've lived in London for over twenty years and I absolutely would not go out and about after midnight unless it was in a very busy, central area. I feel uncomfortable enough at the male behaviour on my route home from work that I will take a taxi after 9.30pm. I've lived in areas where I felt more safe (let's say an 11pm 'curfew') but I do not currently live in a particularly nice area (high knife and drugs crime etc).

I think this sort of issue situation the issue as you're not so much at threat from being a woman as from being a a dodgy area where anyone would be at risk. We don't go into the city much (pre covid) its just a place we don't feel safe any time of the day.

I think we need to start by changing the way we speak. When a woman is attacked, you only hear the passive voice.
A woman has been attacked in LOndon on broad day light. Or a woman has been raped in this park.
What you don’t hear is
A MAN has raped a woman in a park (only a man can do that).

What you hear is all about the victimes never the perpetrators.
Maybe if we were putting the focus on who actually attacks, rape, catcall, touch etc... things will change.
Because yes not all men. But men as a class, in general, sure have a hell of stuff to sort out to become decent human beings (towards women but also towards men)

Further to my earlier comment a curfew for men is quite unreasonable, just as women should not suffer because of men who take what they want from women, neither should the law abiding nice blokes.

The reality is that women are frustrated and hurt. And like anyone who is hurt, they are screaming their pain because they’ve said it many times and have never been listened to (you're overreacting) ....

But many are listening and do understand but what do you want them to do form vigilante groups to beat up anyone who 'looks dodgy'?

You're making the decent men responsible for other peoples actions.

From the perspective of a man that no one has asked for but I will volunteer anyway....

It IS hard hearing your entire gender being tarred constantly as according to some, we are all "a potential rapist / murderer / violent sociopath". Most of us couldn't imagine raising a hand to ANYONE let alone a woman and find the thought of raping anyone sickeningly abhorrent. If you are hearing push back it's because THAT is the reason. That is the reason you hear "not all men" and we mean it too.

We hate rapists / thugs as much as you do, if not more. The thing is they don't exactly make themselves known to us or there would be more men turning up at a&e after being given an attitude adjustment. Similarly most of us are totally fine with the bad ones being named and shamed.

Yep I am actually making them responsible.

Because when 94% of women have been sexually assaulted by men before they are 30yo, then I am going to assume that actually many men are assaulting women. And even more of them are standing by when things like are happening. Because you know ‘it’s a problem between them. Nit mine’ or ‘it’s dangerous for me to interfere’.
Cue for women to be raped on a train with other travellers standing by, women been harassed and assaulted in broad daylight etc...
I had a man assaulting me in a bus, 3.00pm on a Friday. Nit one of those men around me moved a finger. They all looked somewhere else.

So yes, I am going to make those men also accountable and responsible. And for ONE man who ‘behaved badly’ you had at least 20 to refused to look.

"If someone handed you a box of Maltesers, and said one of them was dog shit dipped in chocolate, would you still eat one?"

Saw this online. So true

The thing is they don't exactly make themselves known to us or there would be more men turning up at a&e after being given an attitude adjustment.
Oh the irony. A man turning up on a thread about male violence suggesting perpetuating more male violence.

@Vegeetas, see my example above.

Would you have intervened? Why didn’t any of the 20+ men in that bus do or say anything?
Why do you think I, as a woman, should trust any man when they can easily be the one who assaulted me or one of the 20 who turned their head? How can I tell which one you are of they don’t make themselves known as you say?
If YOU can’t tell which one is a roast or sexually assaults women, how can women tell that? They can’t. So they are weary of ALL me instead because they are all POTENTIALLY one of the bad apples.

And btw, I judge the man that assaulted me but I also judge the ones who didn’t lift a finger. For me they are just as bad as each other tbh.

@Vegeetas

From the perspective of a man that no one has asked for but I will volunteer anyway....

It IS hard hearing your entire gender being tarred constantly as according to some, we are all "a potential rapist / murderer / violent sociopath". Most of us couldn't imagine raising a hand to ANYONE let alone a woman and find the thought of raping anyone sickeningly abhorrent. If you are hearing push back it's because THAT is the reason. That is the reason you hear "not all men" and we mean it too.

We hate rapists / thugs as much as you do, if not more. The thing is they don't exactly make themselves known to us or there would be more men turning up at a&e after being given an attitude adjustment. Similarly most of us are totally fine with the bad ones being named and shamed.

Not as hard for us women who have to bear the brunt of violence and sexual assault.

So spare me the butt hurt feelings.

I had meant to say that its highly frustrating that other than lending our voices to yours, there is nothing more we can do.

I wasn't trying to minimize or condescend what women experience I promise.

You’re right @PurpleDaisies.
It’s the same men who would be worried to end up in A&E and therefore prefer to leave a woman fend for herself, see sexual assault or harassment in front of their eyes but will ignore ‘because it’s too dangerous’...

But what is really really important is that their feelings are hurt because you know ‘nit all men’...

@Vegeetas

From the perspective of a man that no one has asked for but I will volunteer anyway....

It IS hard hearing your entire gender being tarred constantly as according to some, we are all "a potential rapist / murderer / violent sociopath". Most of us couldn't imagine raising a hand to ANYONE let alone a woman and find the thought of raping anyone sickeningly abhorrent. If you are hearing push back it's because THAT is the reason. That is the reason you hear "not all men" and we mean it too.

We hate rapists / thugs as much as you do, if not more. The thing is they don't exactly make themselves known to us or there would be more men turning up at a&e after being given an attitude adjustment. Similarly most of us are totally fine with the bad ones being named and shamed.

Fucking hell.

No you don’t hate “rapists and thugs” more than this, the ones who’ve been raped and assaulted by them. Do you always make everything about you?

The majority of sexual assault and harassment and even rape I’ve experienced were perpetrated by men I knew and previously trusted. I’ve seen one of these men online crying “not all men”, now that he’s a happily married father. Didn’t stop him sexually assaulting me on multiple occasions, when we were “friends”.

I cannot tell you what it’s like growing up and having man after man prove themselves to be unworthy of my trust.

I didn’t just wake up one day and distrust men. It’s a reaction to male behaviour. If you’re angry about that, be angry with the men.

I have no idea which men I can trust, and I will never be able to fully trust a man ever again. Because these are not rare and isolated incidents - it’s a pattern, repeated often, from my childhood through to adulthood.

It’s not just “rapists and thugs” who are the problem. Our entire society is structured around misogyny and the disrespect of women. I don’t think I’ve ever met a man who hasn’t been complicit in this at some point in some way.

What response exactly are you expecting when you bring this up with a man? Either "not all men" is true or you are directly accusing them of being a sex criminal. Given I (like most men) have never perpetrated nor witnessed any rape, sexual assault or intimidation, what exactly are you expecting? #NotAllMen are burglars either and I'm no more inclined to 'take responsibility' for them than I am for sex criminals.

Try focusing on what would actually help, i.e. more police with time to do actual police work catching criminals rather than attempting to demonize half the population and you might actually get somewhere.

[quote ParadiseIsland]@Vegeetas, see my example above.

Would you have intervened? Why didn’t any of the 20+ men in that bus do or say anything?
Why do you think I, as a woman, should trust any man when they can easily be the one who assaulted me or one of the 20 who turned their head? How can I tell which one you are of they don’t make themselves known as you say?
If YOU can’t tell which one is a roast or sexually assaults women, how can women tell that? They can’t. So they are weary of ALL me instead because they are all POTENTIALLY one of the bad apples.

And btw, I judge the man that assaulted me but I also judge the ones who didn’t lift a finger. For me they are just as bad as each other tbh.[/quote]
I wouldn't dream of arguing with your assessement whatsoever.

I am sorry for what you've experienced and even more sorry for explaining myself so poorly and making you feel like you have to justify your point of view, I promise I meant no offense.

Sorry once again.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

If violent men (and I'll say it in case of whataboutery - the astonishingly small by comparison incidents of violence by women) stopped harassing, catcalling, groping, rape, assault and murder) EVERYONE BENEFITS.

But if all violent people stopped everyone would benefit more.

@Vegeetas

I had meant to say that its highly frustrating that other than lending our voices to yours, there is nothing more we can do.

I wasn't trying to minimize or condescend what women experience I promise.

Yes there are things you can do.

You can intervene when a woman is getting assaulted or harassed.
You can pull your mates up on the way they speak about women.
You can ask women who seem uncomfortable if everything is ok (and then LEAVE THEM ALONE if they say they are ok)
You can look at your own behaviour and ask yourself if sometimes you are not making women uncomfortable too.

There are many many things that you can do.

Because when 94% of women have been sexually assaulted by men before they are 30yo, then I am going to assume that actually many men are assaulting women. And even more of them are standing by when things like are happening. Because you know ‘it’s a problem between them. Nit mine’ or ‘it’s dangerous for me to interfere’

That I know of, absolutely none of the people that have sexually harassed/assaulted me have gone on to be convicted murderers or rapists. So yes, men really do need to consider that it is the normal "decent" men doing a lot of this.

There is a very strong unwillingness in men to consider the "smaller" things that contribute to a society where the "bigger" things happen, and do with some regularity.

As a random example (and I can think of several) when I was at Uni two different men within the space of a year, who were both part of my primary friendship group at the time, decided they fancied me and continuously pursued me until I had to awkwardly reject them. Both times, all the other men in the group kept telling me how awkward I was making things, how he was such a nice guy and I should just give him a chance. I ended up ostracized from both groups, and one of the men was highly bitter about the rejection, and told all that would listen about how "shallow" women were. He was furious with me for not giving him a chance.That kind of bitterness and entitlement is a precursor to much more dangerous things. Seeing it in other men will normalise it for people with the potential to actually go out and do something dangerous. And ALL of the other men involved just wanted me to go out with him so it wasn't a problem anymore and so he wasn't upset.

It's that sort of thing, which I know will be familiar to so many women, that is why "decent" men need to shut up and listen at this point.

We hate rapists / thugs as much as you do, if not more.

More, really? How does that work?

@Vegeetas

I had meant to say that its highly frustrating that other than lending our voices to yours, there is nothing more we can do.

I wasn't trying to minimize or condescend what women experience I promise.

Then I'm sorry but this was an unbelievably insensitive comment to make!

We hate rapists / thugs as much as you do, if not more.

If not more? I doubt you hate them more. I really do.

And you hating them and saying you would perpetuate violence by beating the shit out of 'the bad ones' isn't being an ally.

Being an ally is things like calling out the comments your male friends and colleagues may have made about women over the years, not categorising your sex into goodies and baddies with nothing in the middle.

You think of bad guys as thugs / rapists. You probably don't think of bad guys as the people who comment on our bodies when we walk down the street, get cross with us when we say no thanks we aren't interested, laugh about a mate cheating on his stag do with a prostitute, watch porn that shows violence against women... we don't need you to categorise men into good vs bad people. We want the bad things some (many) men do to be challenged / stopped / prosecuted etc.

The underlying misogyny in our society contributes to the very serious crimes we are terrified of happening to us. That same underlying misogyny is also something we experience day to day in a multitude of ways that we are supposed to accept because they aren't deemed that bad and aren't done by "bad guys". It's exhausting.

The Muslim comparison is specious. There are 1.8 BILLION Muslim people worldwide. In 2019 there were eight terrorist attacks deemed newsworthy. Even if we assume each of these attacks involved 1000 people (a number I have plucked out of the air), that is 1/2.25 million Muslims involved in a terrorist act in 2019. In other words, it is completely and utterly ridiculous, racist and Islamophobic to suggest that Muslim people are terrorists.

Take male terrorism in the US. There were 8 'indiscriminate public rampages' by shooters in the USthe equivalent of a random act of terrorismthat killed at least 4 people or more. All were committed by men, making the rate of terrorists in the US male population 1/12.5 million. Would still be fairly obtuse to suggest this problem is all men, but interesting (racist!) that these acts, predominantly committed by white men, aren't considered 'terrorism'.

Turning to rape, if men are asked about it and the word rape isn't used 6.4% of men will admit to it, according to this study. The packet of maltesers where one is chocolate covered shite is actually not a terrible comparison.

The Muslim comparison, on the other hand, is racist crap.

I just don't get what argument is being put forward by the men who enter these discussions in order to say 'but men are at risk too'. Of course you are, from male violence.

Is your argument:

a) Male violence is endemic in society, nothing can be done about it. We are all scared of violent men. We men have to put up with that and the ways it curtails our lives, so you women will just have to put up it and the far larger ways it curtails yours.

Or... or what, actually? What is your point?

Would committing to seeking ways to address the issue of male violence (which will include listening to other people whose lives are curtailed by it and understanding that the ways it curtails their lives, the behaviours that count as bad, as scary, might be quite different from the ways and behaviours that curtail your own), really be such a bad idea?

Would you rather just roll over and submit to the status quo?

No-one is expecting anyone to have all the answers. Only a willingness to recognise that things are bad and to contribute to trying to make them better. For everyone.