Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

I think your DFIL is being manipulated a bit by your SIL. I agree with other posters that I would take the money he is offering, even just to safe-guard it for him in the future as I worry he could end up penniless with all the potential issues and you and your DH would feel like to have to help.
I have no experience of cabins, but I think there was a episode of location location where the family did this and the cabin took like 2 years to get through planning and build. Fortunately in that case, they were all happy to live in the big main house.

Has anyone mentioned if FIL starts another relationship ? She might not want to move into a cabin in his daughters garden but he might not be able to move in with her as he might not be able to afford it. It's not like he could sell the cabin to get some money back.

Is there any way you can all get together to discuss?

It will be hideously awkward - but then it already is!

Been following from the start and the legal implications re care fees, inheritance tax, planning permission, BIL/SIL relationship/ownership/wills etc. are far too important to not bite this bullet

The relationship will never be the same again but it sound like your DH will never rest unless he knows he has given it everything to try and avoid this very badly planned shit-show

How does BIL feature in the financial arrangements for all of this? Is the proposed big new house dependent on him contributing to the mortgage too? How secure is his employment/income?

Once all the initial emotion has calmed down a bit. I wonder if you could send a transparent open email to both FIL and SIL - probably in the next week for timeliness

If you want to rebuild a relationship:

Say congrats to SIL on the baby - such wonderful news........

What a great idea that FIL wants to move to the coast and how the other grandchildren get to grow up with him around

Emphasise that you think the above is brilliant.

Acknowledge you were shocked about all the information that came out and the speed at which it all happened but just honestly want the best for both parties.

Then you give them all the information on this thread and say that it is up to THEM to do the due diligence on this plan and hand all the accountability on to them and advise both of them to see a solicitor.
Send links on legalities
Send links on planning

Send links to properties

Make the point that, you wouldn't want this to happen, but what if SIL & BIL break up, what happens to assets (particularly if it's SIL /BIL on deeds and not FIL)

What would happen if care was needed

End the email saying you can't wait to see them in their chosen accommodation / s

Then really you have done all you can. If they want to actively ignore advice, then it's up to them.

Get someone impartial to read the email before you send it.

Ultimately it looks like SIL will be given money to buy a bigger property although this could be some time off as if she's 3 months pregnant and hasn't yet got her higher wage, it's going to be at least a year to get a mortgage at a higher rate (although I am not a mortgage expert so could be wrong)

Sorry this situation has turned from bad to worse.

Personally...

I would tell him "were all going to miss you, we're all very sad, living together for the next x months is going to make it even harder for the children. Please find somewhere else. Let's plan how we're going to keep regular contact in future. "

I'd also beg him to use the 25k to speak to a lawyer and protect himself from tax issues and what could happen if they split, move or die.

I'd probably put it in an email. Not mention the sister at all.

I feel sorry for the DFIL. Your DH started off being annoyed because potentially losing money from his inheritance to go towards your children's education.
Then it unravelled to something abit more complicated than that and I think he may feel that he's in the middle.
I know your DH is angry and hurt but I hope not with DFIL as I don't think he has done much wrong - yes the asking to live with you isn't ideal I do get that. He also could have mentioned it to you earlier but I can see why he didn't as the SIL told him to not to tell anyone about her pregnancy. And also I see it has moved a lot further then from your opening post in the other thread. It does seem like SIL is manipulating DFIL.

All you can do is advise FIL, which you have done but as an adult who I wouldn't even quite class as elderly or vulnerable, there's lot else that can be done.

But try not to encourage DH to aim any anger or hurt too much at DFIL.

@Heronwatcher

I think, like others, you have to let him make his own decisions and just be there for him if it goes wrong. One query though, would it not be better for you to take the 25k (over a couple of years to avoid paying too much tax) and keep it in a bank account for him- at least then it won’t get tied up in the cabin scheme!

Im not so sure about having to be there for him when things go wrong to be honest. The FIL is willfully walking into a ridiculous situation of his own making, going back on promises he made to his son and DIL, refusing to take even the most basic precautions to secure his own future....It would most definitely stick in my craw to have to 'be there for him'

He’s going to get a big shock when he realises the extent of his childcare duties and how exhausting it is.

I would also wonder if any transfer of promised assets has occurred at this stage? Or if the FIL has done one sensible thing and made timing of transfers conditional on immediate need, ie for a deposit? Because it's very difficult to ignore a chunk of money sitting in a bank account and being able to justify using it in "emergencies" ie one or other losing their job etc......

I really want the SIL to be a mumsnetter and post her side too.

Shame FIL won't take legal advice. You will be able to visit him at the coast and your DC will see their cousins so that's one upside.

And on that note, if he does move in with you then you need to show him how hard it is with your kids, and as a nice little bonus you get some free time.

Let him do it. He's a grown man, if he wants to be a complete plonker, let him.

But I would be taking back the offer of him staying in your house and say there is no room. He will have to move earlier and stay in his oh so doting daughters house. See how long before reality kicks in.

Thank you everyone. DH has just phoned me to tell me he’s going to tell FIL that he can’t stay here. DH has said that his father obviously didn’t want us involved in this whole sham (DH’s words) and therefore we are going to be uninvolved, including putting him up.

He was really irate on the phone and I don’t know if he said what he did about FIL because he’s being stubborn or if he’s just angry.

We didn’t have time to go into it all (on lunch breaks) but I will talk to him about it later. I really don’t want all this to implode

The SIL jumping the gun on extending her family has forced your FIL’s hand, possibly he was wavering on the cabin in the garden idea.
The conversations that were relayed to you seem to indicate that your FIL suggested buying his own place quite a few times and was talked into the cabin plan, mainly at the suggestion of the SIL partner, who doesn’t like him. She must have made her dad feel very pressured by the impending baby to accept a low offer on his own house in less than a week.
Does your FIL realise that his DIL doesn’t really necessarily have any desire for her dad to live in the garden, she might want her dad to be more local but the cabin in her garden is just a rouse to secure the gift of 90K. I think if the SIL is determined to be so dynamic in getting pregnant then she needs to be equally dynamic in presenting details of properties she has found, information from planning re the cabin and a valuation of her current property. Then I think your DH should try and persuade his FIL to gift her the minimum possible for them to secure a house large enough for 3 children and then buy his own place.What the DIL is doing is pretty low. The idea of my parent living in a wooden structure in the garden in all weathers while I live in a larger house facilitated by them feels very wrong.
I think phone Skegness planning office and ask the questions about residential cabins in gardens planning. It would be enormously helpful at this point if your DH could tell his dad that Skegness have a strong policy against giving planning permission for this sort of development which from other posters sounds like it could be likely.
I think the emotional pull of the SIL pregnancy and now his conversation with her making him feel he now has to go ahead with a plan which might have only been hypothetical in his mind is going to make it very hard to appeal to his better judgement. What needs to materialise is a really big practical obstacle, so I would phone a solicitor and get an hours free advice, I would phone Skegness planning and try and find that obstacle.
I would also be tempted to say to your DH that he must tell his Dad that if he intends to go ahead with plan then you will not house him in the interim, Let him sort himself out in Skegness and deal with the reality of having any financial and practical day to day dealings with his DIL partner. He needs a massive reality check rather that happily moving in with you free of charge while basically handing over his future to his daughter. I think your DH has to say to his dad I love you but I can’t support you in something that I feel is going to leave you trapped and unhappy as you get older, so if you want to move to Skegness I think you should go now, rent somewhere and be involved in the house/ garden viewings and speak to the planning office when a property is found before any money changes hands. He might not want to put any legal protection in place but this complete lack of involvement on the choice of house,location, view, budget seems utterly bizarre.

It’s really sad. SIL sounds like a user.

Interim =long term imo.

Get a copy of King Lear and make reading it all together your evening activity!

@randomlyLostInWales

I'd be worried about accepting the 25 K becuase it would seem as if the Op and her DH are endorsing the scheme and could well make them feel they had to house him while he waits and waits.

I can't help thinking it would be easier to avoid the additional social obligation the money could bring.

I agree.

I think OP should not let FIL stay with her family, & this will be made easier if they don't take the £25K.

Personal story: I was so relieved when DH declined to be involved in SIL & BIL's schemes using PIL's money. He & FIL had argued against their plans but obstinate MIL was fooled into doing what SIL & BIL wanted by the promise of being near her GC. We were asked to become involved by holding some of the money but we stepped back & let them sort it out themselves.

Once PILs had sold their house, moved to another city to live permanently in rented accommodation & funded the building of an extension to SIL & BIL's property, SIL & BIL promptly moved away & left PILs stuck in a new city on their own with the same money worries as before & very little chance of seeing the GC.

DH's childhood home was gone, his DPs were twice as far away from us & there would be no inheritance. And SIL & BIL completely soured the relationship. I never looked at them the same way again.

@ThornAmongstRoses

I'm so sorry this is causing such stress to you and your DH.

But at least he is now focusing on keeping an element of stability in tact at home for you all. If FIL was living with you I can't see there being any respite. At least you can now be involved to the degree you choose - or if he invites your input - and be able to take breaks if it all gets too much.

Sorry Xpost well if you DH husband decides to wash his hands of all it then I can understand how he feels. It sounds like it is going to be a disaster and DH is just expected to sit and watch it happen.

@Mylovelyhorsee

It’s really sad. SIL sounds like a user.

Like father like daughter?

With the pregnancy at least you now know what the real motivation is for taking his money to get a bigger house, and I very much doubt that "looking after FIL" has anything to do with it

Overall I agree that it's FIL's decision to make; however it's thoroughly unreasonable to expect autonomy and that others will pick up the pieces, especially if he won't even accept legal advice.
Of course, what to do about it is your decision, and frankly I'd rescind the offer to stay with you to force the issue. However DH hasn't yet come to his senses on that one, so for all your sakes I only hope that changes

"DH has just phoned me to tell me he’s going to tell FIL that he can’t stay here."

I think that it's a good idea.

I wouldn't necessarily go from the emotional angle of the kids, just that it's too open ended.

I think your DH is right. Apart from not wanting to be taken advantage of, and protecting your children from hurt, it will make FiL face up to the reality of his choices, possibly while he still has enough funds to buy a small place for himself. So although it may seem harsh to FiL it could be the best way to protect him