Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

not letting him move in with you is the only chance you and your DH have at salvaging a relationship with him as you can stay detached from the cabin (money heist) shit show.
The timeline is the best way to approach it and testing out skegness and being near his DD
After 3 months he will not in any way be ready to move out , that would only work if he already had a date.
Of course he should stop the sale abc think this through but he thinks he is getting on his white charger and helping his DD then she will be grateful and love him, yeah right.

"What will your DH do if the new house and big garden never materialise?

Your FIL will be moving in and living with you and then when you kick him out you will be the evil ones making your FIL homeless"

If FIL isn't completely stupid, he will only give his daughter the money she wants for a bigger house & will therefore still have enough to buy himself a property.

HNRTT and you seem to be managing your involvement so it doesn't look like you are trying to sabotage, OP, but if he is looking to permanently occupy then would the cabin need planning permission?

Good luck.

@tickboxes

I agree with PPs who have said OP is now in danger of doing exactly as her FIL is doing. Waving away an absolute shed load of clear, practical advice which would halt or at least put the brakes on this car crash because 'aargh, what can we do, it's faaamily'. A thread and a half and nothing has changed. FIL is still moving in and the car crash is gathering speed. Best of luck, OP.

You could be right.

But God help her she will pay dearly for it.

FIL plonked on her sofa in their only living room dictating what they all watch.

🙄

Makes me realise husband and I must not really love our family's because neither of us would accept being imposed upon like this.
Not to mind by a sneaky liar.

At any stage has fil recognised the hurt he's caused his son by been so deceptive.
Has it been put to him that in order to make things right with his daughter he's decided to do so at the cost to his son and his family and possibly to himself in future.

This whole situation doesn't sound right at all. Why does his daughter think it's ok to demand he moves from his home town in order to facilitate a relationship with her children and lose the one he already has with his other grandchildren.
Why doesn't she move home if she's so bothered or encourage him to have homes in both places to enjoy his full family.

I think more needs to be said to her so she realises the enormity of what she is demanding from her father.

hey OP I've read all your updates and understand you've talked to FIL a couple of times. I still think you need to follow up with a letter setting out that you are concerned, don't think this is in his best interests long-term, but if he decides to go ahead he can stay with you for a set period of time but he cannot rely on you to house him in the future or help him out financially or emotionally if everything goes wrong and he has no assets to fall back on.

You need to make your position clear and be prepared to stand by it as I expect things will go wrong.

@diddl

"What will your DH do if the new house and big garden never materialise?

Your FIL will be moving in and living with you and then when you kick him out you will be the evil ones making your FIL homeless"

If FIL isn't completely stupid, he will only give his daughter the money she wants for a bigger house & will therefore still have enough to buy himself a property.

What if he gives her the money for the new house but then there's never a moving in date for his cabin in the garden?

FIL is not actually attaching any legal conditions to the money he is giving his DD, he's paying the better part of the proceeds from the sale of his house.

I don't think SIL will want him moving in onto her property. This will end up with OP and her DH having FIL moved into their house and they wont be able to ask him to leave as that will make him homeless.

Oh dear, I'm so sorry to read this update, that your DH has caved and agreed to have this houseguest for 3m!! It will become very painful by then.

I stayed in MIL's house for 6w years ago, and it was horrific after 2 -3 w - by the time we got out of there, I didn't want to see MIL for a long time, but she kept coming to our new house Every Single Day. I cracked it after another week and told DH that he could move back in with her or get her to stop coming so much - max of 3 times a week, no more.

That helped. I needed SPACE from this woman!

Just wanted to add - I moved in with my in-laws for a month before we moved into our new home. Now, I love my in-laws. I am very lucky to have such kind and supportive people in my life.

I couldn’t get out of there fast enough.

Everyone has their own routines, habits, preferences for heating and laundry and general housekeeping etc. 3 months is a long time to be enduring someone else’s, in what used to be your own private space. Honestly, it’s too long. I really would try and change this arrangement if I were you. For everyone’s benefit.

I’m very sorry you are in this position, you must be feeling utterly drained and distraught. Which means it’s even more important to look after yourself. Take care x

You're angry, you're upset - and yet your whole family is going to have to make sacrifices to accommodate your FIL while the move is sorted out. If you can't bring yourselves to say that he can't stay now, there's absolutely no way you'll be able to "throw him out" when the three months are up - because that's how it will be framed.

This is the start of your FIL living with you for many months - and possible even longer - with you getting increasingly resentful of the sacrifices you're making for the sole benefit of your SIL and her family. There will be no escaping what's going on with your FIL right there in your house.

I don't understand why you're being so passive. This is going to negatively influence your children and you/your DH. You are facilitating and supporting a move that you say you vehemently disagree with. Being a martyr, and forcing your children to do the same, won't make things better.

You keep on saying how terrible it's going to be while he's living there - so tell him no? The SIL doesn't seem to have any trouble doing that. I'm genuinely sorry to sound so blunt but you are in charge of your own lives, and you have the power to stop all of this from turning into the miserable saga it's heading for.

I can see the argument that your FIL is an adult and can make his own decisions - However those decisions should be fully informed and I do still really think he needs advice from a solicitor about putting £90000 into a house with his daughter and a third party ( her partner)

As has been said many times there are many problems with this and he at least should have this explained b someone else other than family - THEN he is making a decision based on independent advice .

please at least try and persuade him to do this .

I dont think you DH realises the impact on you. And its all very well saying that he would do the same for your parents, but thats not whats being asked, and in the same way even if it WAS your parents, you would still be being the one impacted due to your weekly routine

Its not even as if FIL is broke.

he needs to move up to the area - if he is involved in this house sale, then he should be in the area.

however it all sounds fishy. I really suspect the cabin will come to nothing and this is a ploy to get her 'inheritance' out now

Hi OP,
I have been looking back over your thread.

Initially when you thought FIL was downsizing your husband offered to put him up while he was between houses, however, I think the reason it really grates now is when you just get to the crux of it - is that he wants to stay with you so that he can give all his money to SIL. That is basically it and you are not unreasonable to be annoyed. He doesn't want to "waste" money on renting as that is either money he could give to SIL or adds to the precious little he will have left after she has cleaned him out.

Awkward but honest "we feel pissed off about you wanting to stay with us as you only want to stay with us so you can give all your money away to SIL" "If you are going to give all your money away to SIL the least she can do is put you up". I know you said her house is small OP but he is giving her 90K! Surely they can squeeze him in. Or he can rent. Up to him. But definitely not your problem.

As for "I want to spend all the time I can with you before I go" utter bullshit. Just say "no - it will make the children miss you even more when you go". If you buy or rent somewhere suitable then we can visit - or you can visit us now and then for a holiday.

Also puzzled why "we are having to sacrifice two of our rooms to accommodate him". Why 2 rooms? Just give him one room as a bedroom. Keep your office or playroom - whichever you need more. Also don't give up your alone time. Have a duvet day with movies and chocolate or whatever. Your FIL is used to living alone he doesn't need you to constantly entertain him.

I think you need to tell FIL that you have been thinking of the impact his temporary stay will have on the children and on your family life. That you need to be open and honest with him and that to maintain a good relationship with him in the future you are going to have to withdraw the offer of his staying with you. You will of course visit them all up in Skegness once he's settled in.

Good point made by the previous poster . There are long delays in materials due to covid and Brexit - so this may well be the case .

"Hi not sure if this has been mentioned as I have not read every thread, I know you have said the cabins take 6 weeks to build from ordering but we have been looking at getting a similar sized cabin and everywhere has a huge waiting list, quite a few told us they wouldn't be available for 2 years!

i would speak to the company and make sure 6 weeks is still definitely an option."

"What if he gives her the money for the new house but then there's never a moving in date for his cabin in the garden?"

Well if he has a cabin built but isn'tt allowed to move into it then he's completely in the shit isn't he as he has no money.

I was assuming that if the cabin gets built he will be allowed to move in.

If not, why let it be built as it would just be an eyesore in their garden.

and ultimately it IS your place to speak to solicitors, etc, because potentially you are going to be left holding the baby effectively, and it impacts on family when a parent is old and needs care or needs to move into a home.
And you dont want to be put into these positions, whether he likes to think about that or not.

65 is pretty young. For many 75 is still reasonably mobile and active, but possibly with the beginnings of the health problems that will effect them. It only takes a couple of falls, or a chronic disease, or the onset of dementia for things to start going downhill quite fast.

@NettleTea

and ultimately it IS your place to speak to solicitors, etc, because potentially you are going to be left holding the baby effectively, and it impacts on family when a parent is old and needs care or needs to move into a home. And you dont want to be put into these positions, whether he likes to think about that or not.

65 is pretty young. For many 75 is still reasonably mobile and active, but possibly with the beginnings of the health problems that will effect them. It only takes a couple of falls, or a chronic disease, or the onset of dementia for things to start going downhill quite fast.

I used to work for a solicitors who would sometimes deal with cases like these.

I'm sure that though they will speak and advise the person (e.g. FIL) and especially re IHT implications (gifts, 7 year rule etc), at the end of the day, they will tell him and you that it is ultimately his decision.

You cannot force someone to save money for a house, care fees etc or arrange to be POA for them.

I think FIL here is being really sly and conniving - he knows exactly what he's doing, who he's upsetting and pleasing etc.

@ThornAmongstRoses, I’ve read both your threads. You must be sick to death of constantly being reminded about planning permission, deprivation of assets, etc. I know I am and it’s not even my thread!

In a similarly difficult situation with my dad I ended up calling his closest friend and explaining the situation and my concerns. I asked his friend if he’d meet him and talk through the situation and point out the pitfalls. After that conversation everything went very quiet for a few days and Dad changed his mind.

Does your fil have a close and trusted friend who could be asked to discuss his plans with him? People are more inclined to listen to their contemporaries than their children.

And don’t think that staying with you will be a bed of roses for fil either. He’s losing his privacy, space and high standards of cleanliness!

i would also ring the cabin company. Ask specifically about whether they need planning permission if they are going to be used as self contained accomodation. Ask how many they have applied for, how long it took - including the imapct of covid, and what percentage were granted. And how much that process costs.
Thats just one phone call.

Then call the planning dept in skegness and ask them about it. And ask how long planning applications are taking at the moment. Thats two phonecalls.

That will give you some hard facts to pass onto your FIL, not even touching the house purchase

The planning portal is very clear that permission WILL be needed if the accommodation is self contained. It doesnt come under granny annexe status because he is fit and healthy

[quote Alsohuman]@ThornAmongstRoses, I’ve read both your threads. You must be sick to death of constantly being reminded about planning permission, deprivation of assets, etc. I know I am and it’s not even my thread!

In a similarly difficult situation with my dad I ended up calling his closest friend and explaining the situation and my concerns. I asked his friend if he’d meet him and talk through the situation and point out the pitfalls. After that conversation everything went very quiet for a few days and Dad changed his mind.

Does your fil have a close and trusted friend who could be asked to discuss his plans with him? People are more inclined to listen to their contemporaries than their children.

And don’t think that staying with you will be a bed of roses for fil either. He’s losing his privacy, space and high standards of cleanliness![/quote]
this is a good move

he probably thinks you are just miffed and trying to piss on his parade

we had similar with FILs POA. he didnt want to do it when we did MIL, but later we got one of his best and oldest friends to both recommend it, say he had one, and offer to be the certificate witness

So much good advice on here, but it's all given by posters, me included, who are just seeing words on a page. OP's FIL is a real person to her, he's been in her life for a long time and they get along.

Of course he shouldn't move in, but it's a bit like telling posters to LTB, easy to say, much harder to do IRL.

You have my sympathy OP, good luck with it all. Perhaps the best way to survive it, is to just let it wash over you as much as possible. .

Sorry I read OP's posts but missed why FIL can't move in with his DD? Is it too small to accommodate him for a few months?

I would have thought it would be an ideal opportunity to see if they all get on in a confined space. They've seen so little of each other all these years that I have a feeling they will grate on each other pretty quickly.

OP, the kindest thing (long term) to do here is not let FIL stay with you as it will force him to be more careful.

Eithe:

1. he movies in with SIL, realises that living with other people is limiting, even if you are going to be in a cabin later on

2. he moves into a rental and hopefully realises that that could be his reality should things go wrong with the cabin/SIL.

Incidentally, is he planning to give the £90k to SIL directly or pay it himself?

If you and your husband both don't have the balls to tell him he can't stay at your house anymore now, you won't have them three months down the line. He'll be in your house 12 -18 months minimum, all the while you're de facto paying the mortgage on your sister in laws brand spanking new house by housing your father in law for free.

Your FIL has no shame in lying to you to get his own way, he honestly thought keeping it all from you until the last minute was a better option that being upfront with you both when the plan first surfaced? You owe him nothing, doesn't matter if he's your husband father, he's the one making this everyone's problem but his own, he's not being forced out of his home by a landlord, he's forcing himself out of his own home to go ahead with a manipulative plan from his daughter, again, you owe him nothing in this charade.

Your FIL and SIL's hair brained scheme will go nowhere after 3 months from the end of April anyways, I'd be genuinely surprised if they have even sold their own house by then.

And I would do as someone else has suggested, ring up the place that he's planning on getting this cabin from, ask them how long it will currently take to get the exact spec one he wants, I'd hazard a guess and say this hasn't been done already by either your FIL or SIL.

@diddl

"What if he gives her the money for the new house but then there's never a moving in date for his cabin in the garden?"

Well if he has a cabin built but isn'tt allowed to move into it then he's completely in the shit isn't he as he has no money.

I was assuming that if the cabin gets built he will be allowed to move in.

If not, why let it be built as it would just be an eyesore in their garden.

I can't see there ever being a cabin built in the garden of SIL's new bigger house, loads of excuses will be forthcoming - takes up too much of the garden, the disruption it will cause being built and attaching it to the required services especially when SIL has just given birth, can't get permission, neighbours object, etc., etc.

On the miniscule chance it is allowed to built there by SIL and her partner I can absolutely see them not allowing him to move in, or ask him to move out after a period of time as it's not working for us, they will then repurpose the cabin as an outside office/play area for the children/guest accommodation for their friends or the partners parents/siblings.

With no legal recourse at all for either the money he has put in the house or a right to stay in the cabin he is paying for FIL will be absolutely stuffed.

Has anyone suggested to FIL what would happen if SIL and her partner decided to sell the property? He would have no right to stay in the cabin, what then? The money he put into the property and cabin is gone, would he receive anything from the sale of the house to move somewhere else, if he moved with them to another property can the cabin be relocated, if not what then? There are severe legal implications here for FIL and to an extent SIL and partner, will the cabin and FIL living there compromise their right to sell on at a later date? How does this cabin impact house insurance, council tax, etc.?

FIL is perfectly entitled to make these errors of judgement and live with the consequences but he is not entitled to make his son and family a party to them, to enable them or to pick up the pieces afterwards.