Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

Rightly or wrongly, realistically it’s very hard to tell a parent they can’t stay with you isn’t it?

As annoyed as DH is, it’s still his dad.

It will be hard to get him out after 3 months - reminding him of the deadline is good sitting him down at 1.5 months and saying this is what need to happen is also a good plan - but it won't be easy and I image it will come with a lot of emotional guilting his side and a lot of anger on yours and you would need to be very firm and uncompromising.

Prior to this its's probably easier to say you've had a good think and the impact on your work of losing the office and the impact on loss of space for children is too much even for 3 months - you lose that argument once he has his feet under your table.

Frankly I think your SIL and FIL have got your DH pegged - he'll let FIL stay and stay until it reaches exploding point - and what does that matter to SIL.

You have done what you can , his options after a couple of months are to move in with SIL or rent or buy a small place in skeggy or locally.
If he changes his mind , he will want to believe he has reached that conclusion for himself , and he may do that , there is still time .

Let people make their own mistakes, that's how they learn. You can only advise but after that it's on them.

His reasoning makes sense even though he's gone the compete wrong way about it and the garden idea is ridiculous. But that's what he wants to do so let him.

The fact that SIL hasn't even started looking making me suspicious as to whether she is pregnant or not cos surely there would be some urgency? Especially if FIL has sold his house?
I think maybe the reality of him living in their back garden is maybe starting to kick in and they could be having second thoughts..especially if BIL doesn't particularly get on with him. They're probably trying to figure out a way to just get a bigger house using the money from the sale of the house and exclude FIL from the equation somehow.

Has FIL exchanged contracts on his sale yet? That is the point at which he is contractually bound to proceed with the sale and move out on the agreed completion date. Do you still not know this OP? You really need to find out. It's a very clear question with a yes or no answer. He's still running rings around you.

Guilty? How come his sister is not feeling guilty? SHE is the selfish and entitled child so SHE has to think that her father will be homeless, not your DH In your case you are not even accepting any money from him so you have nothing to be accused of!

But you are only going to tell him that you are doing it for his own financial protection, not about your own mental health, the impact on your childrens' lives, space, privacy. Only things that affect HIM so you won't appear selfish (even though you are clearly not!).

I have witnessed many times elders acting irrationally and then their children have to make harsh decisions and treat them like toddlers for their own sake! Like you won't let your toddler decide to bring their friends to stay in your house for 3 months it can be the same for parents when you have influence and want to limit the repercussions which will ruin ALL your lives. DH has regretted not having been very harsh with his DF when he should have stayed at the hospital for further investigation and now he is severely disabled and DH has to constantly run left and right, leaving work for his DF at the drop of a hat. After all that happened FIL also wanted to sell his house too (MIL's instigation but manipulative SIL must have played her part) but they couldn't thankfully!

The person whose head you need to bang against the wall is your husband for being such a wet lettuce. You can't do much about your father in law. But your husband should be protecting your home.

He later felt guilty about it so the agreement then was that FIL could stay but with a set time limit of 3 months.

And when it comes to three months time your husband will feel guilty all over again and his father will stay as long as he likes. Possible forever. Your FIL might be penniless by then as well, since he is stupid as well as manipulative.

How can someone be so naive? Or unaware?

FiL doesn't care. He can live in cloud cucckoo land because he can live with you and your husband for as long as he pleases and he knows it.

The only chance you and DH have of protecting FiL and yourselves is to refuse to have anything to do with the whole scheme. Doin't accept being guilt-tripped into any part of this idea. No moving in with you. I think you'll find that if you and DH stop agreeing to be his backstop then FiL will take better care of himself.

@ThornAmongstRoses

So what happened to your DH's plan to tell him he can't stay?

He later felt guilty about it so the agreement then was that FIL could stay but with a set time limit of 3 months.

But as others have pointed out, if DH feels uncomfortable about saying anything now, it's not going to be any easier once he's living there and making "Oh dear, what can I doooooo" noises as this drags on and on. There's also no way he's going to be any more keen on legal advice once he's got a nice little roost at your place, and he could easily become utterly reliant on you for everything - especially as he ages and illnesses start to crop up

I'd have hoped DH would be as keen to protect his own family as he is your FIL, but sadly it doesn't seem to be the case

If FIL has until April to move out then he hasn't exchanged yet and he should cancel the sale. Give him the ultimatum. HE and SIL KNOW that your DH will feel guilty and are playing him up.

I'm also wondering if FIL was very reliant on his wife. Maybe he is hoping SIL will take over all the household duties?

At 65 he is very young, you would hope that in a few years time he will find himself a nice girlfriend. I doubt many women his age will be very impressed with a cabin in the daughters garden.

@ThornAmongstRoses

So what happened to your DH's plan to tell him he can't stay?

He later felt guilty about it so the agreement then was that FIL could stay but with a set time limit of 3 months.

If he feels guilty now when it is just an idea how guilty will he feel evicting his own father when he has nowhere to go.

He has a home at the moment. He won't have once he has spent three months with you.

I'm also wondering if FIL was very reliant on his wife. Maybe he is hoping SIL will take over all the household duties?

FIL actually did the majority of the housework and cooking. His house is always immaculate and he’s always bringing us home cooked food over. He’s definitely more house proud than me and DH which is another reason why I feel nervous....but at the same time, it’s easy to have an immaculate house when you live alone and don’t work isn’t it.

Oh I’m dreading it.

@crosspelican

You're going to have him for longer than 3 months, too.

SIL has to find a house - 2 months+
Apply for a mortgage - 2 weeks?
Buy it - 2 months
Apply for planning permission - 2 months
Book cabin company - they'll start work in about 2 months after quoting, depending on their workload
Building work - 1 - 2 months

So that's a minimum of 9 months, probably more like 12.

Yes this ^^

However, I would say that these would be the fastest timings ever, so this could easily be doubled for every element.

Doesn't the SIL need to get promoted first to get a bigger mortgage?

So let's say she gets promoted today on a higher wage - she would need at least 3 wage slips at the higher amount for a mortgage.

She would also have to declare a change in circumstance e.g. maternity pay. Her mortgage might not be approved

Doesn't everything hinge on SIL's promotion?

In a way, that's a good thing, hopefully he will see what a bonkers idea this is and at least go and see a solicitor.

Not sure what the point of him staying 3 months at your house is going to do, even if the ball got rolling this very second, it is going to take way over 3 months to sort out

I think I asked on the other thread if he has any friends or relatives who he respects and might listen to? unfortunately the emotion and the pride involved is always going to stop him from listening fully to either of you (or his DD).

If he does, I'd be tempted to contact them and tell them that you're worried about him. Make sure that you don't mention inheritance or the inconvenience of him staying with you, so you don't make it personal to you. Just say that this plan worries you and has all sorts of legal and financial traps, and ask if FIL has talked to them about it. Make the point that you feel he needs good advice (and legal advice) and see of they can make a difference?

If I was in your shoes OP I would decide that I cannot cope with a 3-month houseguest🤬
tell father-in-law this isn't happening anymore
father-in-law isn't being reasonable, sister-in-law isn't being reasonable, why should you be the reasonable one??
Throw your toys out of the pram, go on do it ....then sit back what see what happens👀
The ensuing revelations will tell you all you need to know💡

@ThornAmongstRoses

I’m really, really going to miss my time alone. I have two days a week where I’m home alone for 6 hours and it’s what I survive the week for.

The rest of my time is taken up with work, the children, studying for a degree, general house stuff and volunteer work and my two days where I can just relax are what keep me going.

Don’t get me wrong, I know a lot of people don’t even have that time to themselves so I’m grateful of it.....but the thought of losing it is what I’m dreading. Sometimes during those days I just slob around in my pyjama bottoms, binge on crap TV, refuse to do any housework and eat lots of chocolate. But most of all I enjoy the quiet and nobody needing my attention.

I feel horrible saying all this, but it’s how I feel

I would be exactly the same. Don't feel bad.

The worst part of lockdown has been the little amount of time to myself

What is a realistic time frame for him moving into the Lodge. (Hint: longer than 3 months)

SIL sells her house
SIL finds and buys a house with a big garden.
SIL gets planning permission
Major works for sewage etc
FIL orders lodge, and decides layout.
Lodge arrives
FIL moves in.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Rightly or wrongly, realistically it’s very hard to tell a parent they can’t stay with you isn’t it?

As annoyed as DH is, it’s still his dad.

It really, really isn’t. Especially not to someone with 250k in his bank account. You should try it.

BTW my friend bought a new lodge. Can't remember how long it took between ordering it and it arriving, but a while.

@ThornAmongstRoses

I'm also wondering if FIL was very reliant on his wife. Maybe he is hoping SIL will take over all the household duties?

FIL actually did the majority of the housework and cooking. His house is always immaculate and he’s always bringing us home cooked food over. He’s definitely more house proud than me and DH which is another reason why I feel nervous....but at the same time, it’s easy to have an immaculate house when you live alone and don’t work isn’t it.

Oh I’m dreading it.

Why are your needs bottom of the list?

Oh I’m dreading it.

I'd suggest being pro-active now- finding rental agents in your location and skegness and their contact details and handing it to him and rental prices under guise of being helpful.

If nothing else it will probably get across that staying with you isn't long term option if you really feel saying no isn't an option. Though frankly I think your mad not to back out saying 3 months is too long.

@TheSilveryPussycat

What is a realistic time frame for him moving into the Lodge. (Hint: longer than 3 months)

SIL sells her house
SIL finds and buys a house with a big garden.
SIL gets planning permission
Major works for sewage etc
FIL orders lodge, and decides layout.
Lodge arrives
FIL moves in.

Don't forget she needs a promotion first and a mortgage approval.

And who want noisy work done in the back garden with a new born baby?

@ThornAmongstRoses

To be honest I just feel done with it

FIL knows we have said he can stay here for 3 months and that’s it - just like he initially told us it would be. We do not have enough room for him, we are having to sacrifice two of our rooms to accommodate him and it’s just not practical long term.

I won’t lie, I’m dreading it - I like my own space and I am not at all looking forward to having someone here 24/7 but that’s done now.

He has told us he will only stay for 3 months and me and DH will be talking to him throughout about what progress is happening and after 1.5 months we will be taking him that he needs to start looking for somewhere to rent.

After that, it’s all his own doing. It’s not our place to speak to solicitors etc, that’s his job because we aren’t responsible for him. We’ve advised him more than once to seek legal advice, he’s laughed it off and so that’s his choice.

I really like my FIL but sometimes people have to be left to their own stupidity and deal with the consequences of it if their refuse to listen to others.

That sounds heartless I know, but he’s made his choice so apart from voicing our concerns its his business and when he sees how disastrous it turns out to be then he’ll have to accept he made the wrong decision.

I do hope that there are no problems.

It will be a lot harder to get him out when he has been with you for three months than it would be not to let him in in the first place, (which I thought your DH had decided to do) .

What if he becomes unwell? Will you be able to throw him out then? Or if he just doesn't want to leave because there is nothing in place for him to go yet?

Plus it will put a huge strain on your relationship - your home won't be your own any more.

If he laughs off your advice, it would probably better not to enable him by offering him somewhere to stay - but i appreciate that this is much easier to say than to do, and I honestly don't know if I would take my own advice if I was in your position.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Just caught up with your updates.

Am so sorry things have regressed somewhat, as in FIL coming to stay. No matter how good a relationship is with a family member coming to stay, it does, naturally impose on your routines and affect the household dynamic, so a time limit is I think, essential and must be enforced.

This sort of situation hangs over you and can become all consuming, so suddenly having everything you believed was in place for the future including FILs apparent security in his later years being turned on its head plus the emotional fallout, plus him coming to stay under this cloud will make you feel angry and resentful. It's really hard to get out from under it when it's seeping into every aspect of your life.

None of the other parties seem organised or clued up enough, and you now have to live with perpetual uncertainty until either Project Grandad in the Garden comes to fruition, which might take a long time, or he modifies his plans.

it's clear you and your DH are the only ones putting any sort of legwork into the situation at the moment, and I think it's massively unfair of FIL and SIL to effectively use you as a handy backstop should things go awry. naturally your DH feels he can't deny his father shelter - everything aside, it would be awful to feel you had been instrumental in a family fall out. It's compromise all the way, but you're the ones being compromised.

Once again, I feel for you.

This is a horrible situation for you. But You’ve had some good advice on this thread.
It seems overall your FIL has

1. lied To you multiple times,
2. refuses to listen or discuss
3. but still expects to live with you rent and board free for at least 3 months ( it could well be more) Despite lack of space.

FYI We accepted offer on our house but asked buyers to wait six months Until after baby was born and they agreed.

He seems wilfully stubborn and selfish. He wants what he wants and wants you to co operate. He uses emotional blackmail about wanting to spend more time with the GCs and empty promises about it only being a stop gap.

Both he and SIL know you will not Chuck him out after 3 months or 12 months.

But you have leverage. You could tell him he can only move in here if he sees a solicitor. Who is handling his house sale?

Given your predicament it’s worth visiting a solicitor yourself since it is very unlikely he will do this off his own back. In fact he is likely to lie about what They’re said as well. Find out where his vulnerabilities are and then get the solicitor to explain to your FIL. Is he even capable of understanding this?
Particularly information about potential liability when hiding assets from LAs.

Also you should tell him how hurtful the lying has been, And you want it to stop, because if it is uncomfortable now, what will it be like if he’s still squashed into your house months later if this Ill thought out plan starts to unravel. this is unlikely to be the last drama

Is this all out of character for him? .

I’ve read this thread with great sadness as My own DF was fully fit and active at 65 but needed 6 years of full care home less than 9 years later with a marked decline in the run up.

Your FIL might not but there’s no way of knowing.